617 squadron

No.

617 was formed on 21 March 1943 especially for the Dams Raid. The original intention was to disband the squadron after the raid, but it was later decided that the high level of expertise in the squadron should be used for other specialist operations. Thereafter, 617 carried out a number of Tallboy and Grand Slam operations.

617 Sqn presented itself as "the Premier bomber squadron of the RAF", and the top brass went along with it. This was seen as a grave insult by 9 Sqn, which actually *was* the premier bomber squadron. Thus started a bitter rivalry that has continued to this day.

The squadron operated the following aircraft:

Lancaster B.I, B.III, B.I(Special) Mar 43 - Jun 45 Lancaster B.VII Jun 45 - Sep 46 Lincoln B2 Sep 46 - Jan 52 Canberra B.2 Jan 52 - Apr 55 Canberra B.6 Feb 55 - Dec 55 Vulcan B.1 May 58 - Jul 61 Vulcan B.2 Sep 61 - Dec 81 Tornado GR.1, GR.1B Jan 83 - Jul 98 Tornado GR.4 May 97 - date

My post might have been a more helpful if I'd actually given you some information on Manchester operators.

49 Sqn, Apr 42 - Jul 42, based at Scampton. An example aircraft is L7453, EA-T 50 Sqn, Apr 42 - Jul 42, Swinderby, L7471 Sqn codes "VN" aircraft code unknown. 61 Sqn, Jul 41 - Jun 42, North Luffenham, L7389, QR-J

83 Sqn, Dec 41 - May 42, Lossiemouth, L7465, OL-H

97 Sqn, Mar 41 - Feb 42, Coningsby & Woodhall Spa, L7453, OF-X (note this aircraft was also at some time operated by 49 Sqn)

106 Sqn, Feb 42 - Jun 42, Coningsby, L7417, ZN-V (note this aircraft was also at some time operated by 50 Sqn)

207 Sqn, Nov 40 - Mar 42, Waddington & Bottesford, L7488, EM-Q

420 Sqn RCAF, Apr 42 - Jul 42, Waddington & Skipton-on-Swale, L7402 codes unknown. As the Manchester never flew operations with 420 Sqn, it is possible that the aircraft were uncoded.

All aircraft would have been in the standard night bomber scheme.

Hope this helps.

Plus a couple of Mosquitoes and a Mustang for target marking towards the end of the war. (Still looking for a picture of the P-51).

Jon.

damn. and very cool information, thank you!

yes, it helps a bunch.

a mustang in 617 livirie? totall coolness.

"Enzo Matrix" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Now my curiosity is piqued. What is 9 Sqn's story?

Frank

i don't know if there has been a book written about 9 squadron's history, but if you go to the Royal Air Force website, and head to the section on squadron histories you will find something.

from a modelling point of view, 9 squadron is fairly well covered if you like building Vulcans and Tornados, as modeldecal covers both types and xtradecal just the tornado.

btw, there is a rumor from the 1960's that the squadron might of re-equiped with the Victor B2, though i am not sure how true this rumour is.

t.

9 Sqn (or, as they like to say, IX Sqn) was formed on 8 Dec 1914 at St Omer in France. At the time all of the RFC's squadrons simply did whatever was required of them, but IX Sqn was formed specifically for artillery spotting by radio. The role was eventually expanded to other squadrons and the three Flights were dispersed to other squadrons.

IX reformed at Brooklands on 1 April 1915, as a radio training unit with a variety of BE2s, but in December moved to France with a primary mission of bombing. IX was the first RFC squadron to be designated *primarily* as a bomber squadron as so is indubitably the RAF's premier bomber squadron. The squadron re-equipped with RE8s and later, after the war, Bristol F2Bs. It was eventually disbanded at Castle Bromwich on 31 Dec 1919.

It was again reformed on 1 April 1924 as a night bomber unit equipped with Vimys. It remained in this role for nearly three decades, equipping with successively more capable aircraft. Vimys were replaced by various marks of Virginia and then by the Heyford, until the first Wellingtons were received in Feb 1939.

On the outbreak of the Second World War, IX Sqn flew daylight anti-shipping sweeps over the North Sea, losing their first aircraft (and the first RAF combat losses of the war) on a daylight attack against the /Scharnhorst/ and /Gneisenau/ off Brunsbüttel on 4 September. Losses continued until 18 December when the squadron lost five aircraft on a single op and daylight operations were restricted.

During the German invasion of Norway, IX detached to Lossiemouth in Scotland and carried out night attacks on enemy shipping and airfields. Returning to Honington, IX Sqn was part of Bomber Command's Main Force for the remainder of the war, re-equipping with Lancasters in August 1942.

Up until the formation of 617 Sqn, in accordance with tradition the RAF had always considered IX for specialist missions, but that honour disappeared after the Dams Raid. IX Sqn *was* involved in Tallboy raids, but the insult cut deep leading to the bitter rivalry that still exists today. The most famous Tallboy raid was that which resulted in the sinking of the /Tirpitz/ at Tromso on 12 Nov 1944.

After VE Day, IX Sqn was designated as part of Tiger Force, but Japan surrendered before the squadron could deploy. Nevertheless, the squadron deployed to India where it was engaged in mapping and survey duties until in returned to the UK in April 1946. The Lancasters were replaced by Lincolns in July of that year, which in turn were replaced by Canberras from May

1952. During the Canberra era, IX was involved in operations in Malaya and Suez.

IX Sqn became part of the V-Force when it received Vulcan B2s in April 1962 (never having been equipped with the B1 version) and later moved into the low-level tactical role. The squadron badge features a bat (Their motto is /Per noctum volamus/ , "Through the night we fly") and during this period the squadron actually got a pet bat as a mascot. The bat was given the honorary rank of "Flight Lieutenant" and non-commissioned personnel were required to salute it! Such silliness is rampant within the RAF. At one time

43 Sqn had a commissioned cockerel, until a visiting squadron barbecued it! Thank goodness 27 Sqn never got in on this game - their badge is an elephant!

IX disbanded in April 1982 and so did not take part on the Falklands conflict. From this point on, the concept of "squadrons" as an operational entity largely disappeared from the RAF. "Non Formed Units" were comprised of selected crews for specific operations - we'll deal with this later.

IX Sqn was reformed at Honington on 1 Jun 1982 as the RAF's first Tornado GR1 squadron, moving to Brüggen in October 86. The squadron was designated as the RAF's defence suppression unit, carrying out what the USAF would call "Wild Weasel" missions using the ALARM missile. During Desert Storm, there was an obvious requirement for this type of mission, so rather than dispersing the crews into NFUs, as happened with the rest of the Tornado force, IX Sqn deployed /en masse/ to Tabuk in Saudi Arabia. Now we deal with the major controversy. For some reason, the CO of 617 Sqn, Wg Cdr Iverson, managed to get himself assigned to command the IX Sqn detachment. Since the CO supposedly *is* the squadron, 617 has ever since claimed it was the first unit to use ALARMs in combat - a claim which is patently untrue.

IX Sqn has since re-equipped with the Tornado GR4 and moved to Marham in

2001, where it currently resides.

The rivalry between IX and 617 is still very bitter indeed. Tornado aircrew regularly rotate through other squadrons, but it is noticeable that a crew that has served on IX will almost never get to serve on 617 and vice versa. All squadrons have various memorabilia stashed in their crewrooms, which sometimes becomes a target for good natured thievery by visiting squadrons. The thievery between IX and 617 is *not* good natured. There is a piece of wreckage from the /Tirpitz/ which should reside in IX Sqn's crewroom. In the late 90s it was stolen by 617 Sqn aircrew. They were discovered in the act of doing so by one of the IX Sqn groundcrew and they beat him so badly that he spent a week in hospital! No charges were ever brought. So much for a modern disciplined air force!

Be very careful with this site - it is little more than propaganda. The technical sections are worse than useless as reference. They are written by public relations people who have little knowledge of the subject. For instance, the site sometimes refers to the CRV-7 rocket system as the "CVR-7". It also claims that the RAF uses the AIM-9M version of the Sidewinder - totally incorrect. The pictures of the Paveway III weapon are actually of an American GBU-24... Maybe these errors are trivial, but they denote a lack of attention to detail. These factual errors were pointed out some time ago by myself (and a number of colleagues) when I was both a serving member of the RAF and a civilian consultant. The website was actually rectified for a time but the errors have since crept back in, which makes me think that updates were done from a backup, rather than from the live site. If there is that much inaccuracy on the weapons pages, goodness knows what silliness exists on the others.

There was consideration given to standardisation of the V-Force on one type. The Vulcan and Victor each had their proponents and the discussion got quite heated. The champions of the Victor pointed out, quite correctly, that their favourite had a vastly greater load carrying capability. The Vulcan groupies countered with the fact that the Vulcan had a greater unrefuelled radius of action and was more robust and agile - also quite true.

In the end, it all came down to economics. Withdrawing a large number of perfectly good aircraft that would have been barely five years old at the time, was deemed to be far too expensive, so the RAF maintained a mix of aircraft. As things turned out, this was a blessing in disguise. The Victor would have been unable to operate safely at low-level, for the same reason that the Valiant was unable to. Nevertheless, the phenomenal load carrying capability of the Victor made it ideal as a tanker aircraft.

The Vulcan was more robust at low level and so it managed to soldier on into the early 80s, when its range and agility made it invaluable for the Black Buck missions during the Falklands war. Although of little tactical value, the strikes against Stanley airfield and the Skyguard radar stations on the islands convinced the Argentine military that the RAF had the capability to strike the mainland. They therefore withdrew their Mirage fighters to cover the mainland, forcing them to operate at extreme range over the islands at a tactical disadvantage.

Did you know that a couple of ex-9 or 617 Sqn Lancasters served with the Soviet VVS in WWII ?? (or the Great Patriotic War as the Soviets called it).

The full story is contained in my modelling article at :-

Ken Duffey Flanker Freak and Russian Aviation enthusiast Flankers website at

thanks for making my mind up ken. my airfix lanc will become a commie and i'll look for a better kit for the manchester conversion! i like thos honker big red stars. thank you.

"Enzo Matrix" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Wow. Very good history mate. I guess IX should have the honorific. I get the story with 617, though. Specialists from many squadrons assembled for the "big one". Can see how that sort of elite could become big headed.

Sorry to hear of the nastiness you related. While I have issues with some of the Brits politics, attitudes, etc lately I have always had the utmost respect and admiration for the military of the England. The always seemd to have been the epitome of professionalism and courage. Bloody shame that, but it seems to be a reflection in the general lowering of standards and behavior lately.

That's not "lately". That sort of thing has been going on for years! Aircrew can get away with some things that would have enlisted personnel locked up in a military prison. I know one pilot who had a drunken discussion in the Officers' Mess bar as to whether the hand-held fire extinguishers would put out a major fire. He claimed not and to prove his point he poured a bottle of brandy over a chair and set fire to it. He was proved right; the fire quickly got out of control and caused over £150K of damage. That is an act of arson and had an airman done that in the NAAFI bar, he would have been jailed for two years and then dismissed from the service. As the perpetrator was an officer, it was considered to be "high spirits" and the incident was quietly forgotten!

The UK armed forces *do* attempt to be the epitome of professionalism and courage. It's a shame that the UK government does not provide them with the resources that they deserve.

If ever you get the chance, watch an RAF detachment when they arrive at a location where the Americans have set up a PX. First chance they get, the Brits will descend on the PX and buy up all the combat clothing that they can lay their hands on. The RAF simply cannot afford to issue personnel with the required clothing. During my last few years in the Air Force, I even had to buy my own boots - and I have average size feet!

The USAF has two nicknames for the RAF. One is "Fred Flintstone's Air Force", because their equipment is so old and outdated. Another is "The Borrowers", because an RAF detachment will always arrive ill-equipped and will need to borrow equipment from our American friends.

If you drive past RAF Marham in Norfolk, from the road you can quite clearly see a number of aircraft hulks abandoned on the airfield. These are aircraft that have become life expired and have been stripped for useful parts and dumped. Military airfields always boast a number of these hulks. It is usually no problem, because by the time a jet becomes life-ex, its replacement is being delivered. Dead Hunters on an airfield denoted Harrier and Jaguar deliveries in progress. Dead Lightnings and Phantoms denoted Tornado F3 deliveries. Dead Buccaneers denoted Tornado GR1 deliveries.

Marham now has five dead Tornados sat rusting on the airfield. The Tornado replacement hasn't even flown yet! What a sad state of affairs!

I would think that it's pretty hard to remain professional when all you can see around you is the piecemeal dismemberment of your profession. I know what it's like in the sugar industry here - uncertainty leads to real chaos, with no-one really giving a damn.

RobG

Dambusters DVD Due (region 1)

March 22nd:

Colditz Story Cruel Sea Dam Busters Ship That Died Of Shame Went The Day Well

Be aware that the shots of the aircraft are not at all accurate. At the time the film was made, the Upkeep weapon was still on the secret list. The film makers took a bit of artistic licence and used an enlarged version of Highball, which was of a spherical rather than the correct cylindrical structure.

However, there is one excellent scene where the crew of G/George are climbing aboard the aircraft. They stop momentarily and look back towards the camera. They are in the exact same locations and poses as the real crew were in their famous photo posed after the raid.