Airbrushes--Bottom feed v. gravity v. side feed

I remember the other thread you wrote about this. I can't figure out why you want to adjust the flow of anything from the back of the airbrush whether it's the VL or the Omni 5000. You push the trigger down for air, and you pull it back to control paint flow. You don't need to be doing anything in the back unless it's breaking down to clean it. When your airbrush makes it back to Dixieart, ask 'em to just send you an Omni 4000 because that's one of the people's top choices in the FSM forums.

The Omni and the Iwata Eclipse gravity feeds are the ones that rise to the top among model builders. I have an Iwata Eclipse HP-BS. It's a lot like an Omni 5000. You bought the right thing.

David Kennesaw, GA

Now that I've thought more about it, It sounds like you want single action / internal mix. The Badger 200 probably does what you're thinking about. It is operated by the trigger down for air, and paint flow is set by how you adjust the back of the handle. The 200 NH is siphon feed, so since you are shopping for a gravity feed, consider the 200 G. It has a small color cup like the Omni 5000. I believe that the Paasche SA2000 works the very same way as well as the Paasche CC.

David Kennesaw, GA

The Aztek bottom feed is excellent when using minimal paint. I use single drops of paint with single drops of thinner all the time. With the Aztek, one can also remove the side-mounted paint cup, rotate the brush so the attachment hole is at about a 45 degree angle and then apply single drops of paint mixture directly into the hole. Spray this, then do it again.

Although not a solution, a way to deal with your wasted paint situation is to use minimal paint but lots of thinner. Several light applications should work in most cases.

A major problem with all bottom feed systems is with metallic paints such as Alclad and especially SNJ. The pigment settles rapidly and the system can't spray it evenly. When the pigment settles only the carrier fluid sprays. The tendency is to pull the paint trigger back farther and farther. Still only clear liquid and no pigment. So I pull the paint trigger back even farther and then - SPLAT!!! - all the pigment all of a sudden shoots out in one big glob. SNJ is especially prone to do this. So when using metallic pigment paint I use a jar attachment that has the siphon hose in it, but not all the way to the bottom. (If it touches the bottom, I trim it slightly). After each spray, I gently shake the bottle around a little to stir up the pigment and then spray again.

Hope this helps.

Art

Your two airbrushes are both double-action, that is, the trigger adjusts paint flow and, to a certain degree, air flow. Yet, your description seem to point that you're trying to use them like a single-action airbrush, where the paint flow is fixed and the trigger commands only airflow.

Well, can you give a good reason for you trying to adjust paint flow the way you do, instead of just using the trigger ?

If the answer is yes, then maybe you should consider buying a true single action airbrush. But I'd like nevertheless to hear what your good reason is. Just to check if it's really good...

If no, keep your airbrush and get a few hours of training with someone who is decently litterate with a double-action airbrush. This is not, repeat, not a smart-ass retort.

Well I have the Badger 360 with the rotating head, you can use it bottom feed for large quantities or gravity feed for small quantities. Bought mine from dixieart.com for 85$. No more worries of wasting paint.

Erik Wauters, Belgium

"Disco -- FlyNavy" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m20.aol.com...

/internal mix. David>>

Okay, the gravity feed v. suction issue aside, maybe I have a misunderstanding of double v. single action airbrushes. It's my understanding, with a DA, the trigger movement forward and backward allows fine lines to a wide pattern. With the VL, there is a roller control ahead of the trigger that allows you to set the forward travel limit. The adjuster inside the handle controls rear limit (which is what I've been doing). Thus you can turn it into a single action if you so choose. One question that arises with the VL, is why do I need three needles? My understanding is that the larger needles will give a wider spray. Is this correct, or am I way off? FWIW, I use only the #1 needle for that reason. This also begs the question of why does the VL need three, and the Omni only one? As far as a SA, since the trigger controls only air flow, the fluid adjustment would seem to be just that, fluid adjustment, but not pattern width. SA's obviously have the capability of fine lines to wide patterns, but how, larger needles? This would seem to be a bigger hassle changing needles mid-session than taking off the handle in a DA. Again, I'm open for enlightenment. As an aside, wifey says no to the professional instruction; at $75/hr it's a little cost-prohibitive.

When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return. --Leonardo Da Vinci EAA # 729686 delete .mil.nav to email

with a fine needle and tip you can spray thinner lines (use less paint), with a bigger needle and tip you can spray wider lines (spray higher volume of paint). But for normal modelling a medium needle is enough for a basecoat and a fine needle for details.

No, Let's say you have a SA (like the badger 200) then you can still adjust the spray pattern and volume with the controller at the back, it will travel the needle forward/backwards and make you spray less/more paint giving thinner/wider lines. With a DA (like the badger 150) you can do this travel WHILE you are spraying, with a SA you will have to stop spraying for a few seconds and turn the controller to adjust the spray pattern/volume.

Both the SA badger 200 and DA badger 150 can be fitted with fine or medium needles for fine or medium volume but this has nothing to do with more or less hassle.

Some airbrushes (like the badger 155 & 360) have only one needle for fine AND wide work, making needle change unneeded, these needles have a certain taper so they can spray both.

Erik Wauters

"Disco -- FlyNavy" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m11.aol.com...

misunderstanding

I won't repeat what Erik already said, I'll just add to it. The 3 needles is also to enable heavier breeds of paint with the #5 needle. If you do a mural, I wouldn't use an Omni for broad coverage with thinned latex wall paint. That's more like a job for a VL or a Vega siphon feed with the big tip installed (actually a mini sprayer like a Badger 400). The large needles in these sets aren't really intended to be a selling point for model builders. They're probably more appealing to an auto detail painter. Omni

4000 & 5000 is a tool engineered to excel in a narrowed down set of duties. It is designed for paints which flow (or are thinned down) exactly like what model builders use.

David Kennesaw, GA

misunderstanding

No, or rather yes, but not directly. The width of a line is a non-linear function of paint flow, air pressure and spraying distance. The fwd/bkwd trigger movement lets you start/stop spraying color and control the width of the spray jet, but only to a certain extent.

Good question. I'm not sure of the answer it since my SO dumped her VL, so I cannot check. I suspect that the three needles differ by their taper - a needle with a short taper, for instance, would be less prone to clogging when spraying fluids with particles in suspension, such as metalized paints. If it is so, then the finest needle will give the largest fluid flow and hence, the widest pattern, while the large one will let you spray the finer lines.

Probably because the design of the nozzle (and perhaps the displacement of the trigger) allows for a different needle profile. On the other hand, the Omni is probably shipped with a .2mm nozzle that will allow patterns from 1/32 to 3/4 of an inch. If you want a wider pattern, or if you want to spray metalized paint, you will have to change both the nozzle and the needle for à .4mm. And if you want an even finer spray, you can probably get a .15mm tip, again with its own needle.

Air pressure and spraying distance. The two things that a single action airbrush cannot do well are a)spray isolated blotches (like those found in some Luftwaffe camo patterns), because paint flow starts always at the same time as air flow and thus, some spatter is unavoidable, and b)varying pattern width while spraying. Other than that, SA and DA brushes have exactly the same capabilities.

And if I ever get to digitize the slides, I might show you a 1/48th Me-

262 cockpit entirely painted, shaded and weathered by my SO using only a SA airbrush, two pieces of cardboard and some masking tape. Darn, she didn't even bother to clean the brush between colors...

I wasn't thinking of a professional instructor; a fellow modeler will probably be skilled enough and should not cost you more than a few beers. _After_ the lesson, that is...

Get yourself some watercolour ink or airbrush-ready paint, so that you don't have to bother with dilution ratios, and practice on simple shapes

- lines, squares, circles, whatever. Start with low air pressure, 12-15 PSI, and try to spray the finest possible lines. It will take you some time to find the optimal paint flow/spraying distance combination. Once you've mastered that, concentrate on spraying the lines as regular and straight as possible. Next, on a sheet of paper, draw a vertical line every 1.5 inch and spray a series of horizontal lines going from fine line to large spray in the space between two consecutive vertical lines, then back from large to fine in the next space. Once you master the third step, you will be ready to tackle just about any airbrushing problem scale modeling can throw at you.

Instead of focusing on the needles let's consider the spray head or orifice and it's companion needle. The orifice gives you a pattern and volume of paint (and viscosity capability) which can then be adjusted by your trigger and distance in a DA brush.

Disco, did you look at the Omni Matrix 360? That would give you a top & bottom feeder similar to the Badger 360 (Badger now owns T & C.) hth

The Keeper (of too much crap!)

To Serge, Keeper, Art, David, et al...Thank you very much for the replies, and the patience to read my rant posts. I've printed them to use as references later; it certainly helps the decision process when you have legitimate information to work with! What I thought I knew and actually knew were obviously very different things. Since I haven't used the Omni yet, it may well still get returned, but not for the original reason. Now I have a much clearer idea of what I want/need. I looked at the Badger site and found the Omni Matrix 360 that was mentioned ($145), but DixieArt doesn't carry it, and Badgers price on their own Universal 360 is double Dixie's ($168 v. $85), so.... Time to do a little more digging. Again, thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. Michael

When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return. --Leonardo Da Vinci EAA # 729686 delete .mil.nav to email

Real low prices on Thayer & Chandler and Badger stuff are here....

David Kennesaw, GA

My Dixie Art catalog lists it for $79.95, whether they stock it or not is another matter. The catalog description doesn't mention how fine a line you can get.

Conversely, the 360 Universal touts a "pencil line to a wide 3" pattern." Dixie's price is $87.95. I think you'd get a lot out of that airbrush; send the Omni back for exchange. If I was starting over that's the way I'd go. hth

The Keeper (of too much crap!)

Kennesaw, GA>

Even better prices than DixieArt--thank you!

When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return. --Leonardo Da Vinci EAA # 729686 delete .mil.nav to email

Yeah the prices there are extremely low. I just ordered an Omni 5000 from that site today. If there are any problems, you can bet I'll be yellin' about it in usenet.

I put my Iwata Eclipse BS up for auction.

Iwata's prices on parts are a ripoff, so I want to switch to Badger, Thayer & Chandler.

David Kennesaw, GA