OT: USS San Francisco runs aground question

i.e. "Friends in High Places" I believe back in 1943 the first commander of one of the Iowa class battleships ran her aground in an anchorage in Maine. He had been Roosevelt's Naval Aide and F.D.R. put out the word that there was to be no stain on his record about this. I believe there had bees some discussion about this anchorage being too small for the newer generation ships that were so long. Casco, Maine comes to mind, but I might be wrong.

Bill Shuey

Reply to
William H. Shuey
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Really- Look as Abu Ghreib. Enlisted men and NCOs are getting multi-year sentences, a couple lieutenants and captains may get cashiered, but you can bet your stash of models that Karpinski and Sanchez will at worst, retire early. A co-worker is an ex-marine and former MP. He said were he back in service, he would incorporate what has occured into all training- You obey an illegal order, you're going to be the fall guy and your superiors will skate. Kim M

Reply to
Royabulgaf

"Navy Times" reported in this week's issue that the skipper has been relieved pending the results fo the investigation. This is normal. CO's have been re-instated before, and I expect he will be in this case as long as the facts as reported (the sea mount was not charted) are found to be the cause.

A skipper would expect to found at fault if his charts were out of date (recall the A-6 that took out the ski lift in Italy a number of years ago - the crew had not checked the update manual which did have the lift data, but the chart they used did not), but if the chart is current and the data is not there, he would not normally be held accountable.

Here is a link to the online article about the chart:

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This is to this weeks article about the collision and the sub's damage control efforts to save itself. Commendable seamanship! This link may not work for non-subscribers.
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John W. Alger IPMS 10906 Charlotte Scale Modelers

Reply to
John Alger

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I'm actually very familiar with that mishap (it was an USMC EA-6B by the way) as I'd flown that low level several times and knew two of the crew. I was also an Aviation Safety Officer school guy so I saw and had to brief the squadron all the mishap reports. As part of the planning of a low level it is required to update the chart via the chum and they didn't. The biggest mistake they made though was pressing on with the low level after the radar altimeter failed. This was pretty common on the Prowler as the antennas are conformal ones back near the tail (one transmit and one receive) and they get covered with oil from the engines resulting in a continuous low level warning tone so you just shut it off. As they exited the steep valley to a broader one they were presented with a sight picture that led them to believe they were much higher than they were. In fact, they were considerably lower than allowed and we ended up with the resulting tragedy. If they had followed SOP and simply climbed to the top of the route structure after the radalt failure and enjoyed the view we would have avoided a several year moratorium on low levels in the community and a bunch of innocent people wouldn¹t be dead. The Prowler had never had a low level mishap before and the Marines gave us two in about two years (the other down in Yuma that killed the CO and XO in the same jet)

Allen

Reply to
Allen Epps

"Mark Schynert" wrote

For many - and nearly all with any PR presence - it already is.

And it's complete bullshit, in the same vein as "If everything's important, then nothing is important." The fact is that the head of an organization cannot be responsible - directly or indirectly - for the actions of every one in the organization. For one thing, at what point do you stop firing people? If a guy steals wrenches from the tool crib at a GM plant, this policy would blame/fire his foreman, the supervisor, the department head, the shift supervisor . . . plant manager. . . division manager . . . operations VP. . . CEO.

(Another stupidity is corporate "mission statements". Only a very brave few have been willing to tell the truth and post "To increase shareholder value and make money for the owners" on their bulletin boards.)

This policy runs off the rails because it is set-up to prevent wrong-doing by threatening the higher-ups, in the hope that they will train/manage/investigate/audit/motivate/blahblahblah the underlings from doing something wrong. It ignores the fact that wrong-doers generally are deceitful and know that what they are doing is wrong and try to cover their tracks. Managing against the will of the employee doesn't make much headway. It's ludicrous to believe the CEO is at fault for "failing to motivate the workers to act safely" or some such dreck.

Another problem: If the head gets the blame for the tail being bad, shouldn't it also be rewarded when it is good? For example, if standardized test scores go up, shouldn't the school board be allowed to raise property taxes 10% and give themselves (and those below them in the chain) a nice raise? That's what CEOs do and everybody gets real mad at 'em for it.

The examples Mark lists don't need this sort of crap. What's really needed is to a) determine who is directly responsible for the problem, and b) punish that person proportionately. In general the problem is an unwillingness to act decisively in both a) and b).

KL

Reply to
Kurt Laughlin

It was either Halsey or Nimitz that ran one aground early in their career as well.

Reply to
Ron

It shouldn't be "automatic". There should be an investigation. However, if the result of that investigation shows that somebody in the organization allowed an environment to exist where thievery could exist, then action needs to be taken. Maybe foremen need to be responsible for ensuring all tools are returned at the end of a shift? Maybe HR should be responsible for screening employees to be sure nobody has a criminial record for theft? Maybe security needs to check all packages on the way out? If there was a failure on the part of the HR screener/foreman/security guard, to follow procedure, then shold be corrective action taken. If it's discovered that there's a pattern of failure to follow procedure, then somebody's supervisor needs to be addressed - and so on, and so on, up the organization, until you get to a point where everybody is doing what they're supposed to.

No kidding, BS in marketing? But that's another whole topic.

See above. Start where the problem is discovered & work your way up. In a hierarchy, everybody is responsible for everybody else that's below them. Ultimately, it all comes to a single point, where one person has responsibility for everything & everyone. It's that person's job to make sure that everybody below them is doing THEIR job properly. If there's a general environment where people believe that it's OK to cheat, cut corners, etc., thyen it's the guy at the top of the pyramid who's responsible for that.

Are you suggesting that CEOs should be highly paid, with additional financial incentives based on performance? ;-)

I think you'd see a minor taxpayer revolt if your school board increased your taxes to raise their own salaries. In most states, school levies are limited by law.

Maybe. Then again, maybe everybody was doing exactly what they were supposed to. If that's the case, there should be no punishment for anybody, but rather possilble changes to operational procedure, training, etc. A good investigation should tell.

JM

Reply to
John Mianowski

The Navy is in the process of doing just that on a world wide basis. Actually, I assumed it was completed by now. Obviously not.

Kaliste Saloom IPMS #30703 Lafayette, LA USA

Reply to
Kaliste Saloom

Better than the Bushido method of remedy... and the mob's too. ;-)

WmB

Reply to
WmB

Kind of ironic, when you think about it. The USS SF runs aground, 'Frisco is in danger of sliding into the sea - like I said, kind of ironic. (c:

RobG

Reply to
Rob Grinberg

Royabulgaf-

We tell everyone there are no "ex-Marines", we prefer the term; "former Marine". Also, when mentioning a member of the USMC use the upper case"M", or else we'll think you're talking about acquatic life forms.

Reply to
Group44Registry

lower life forms...

RobG

Reply to
Rob Grinberg

Here's some links to damage pics somebody fwded to me:

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Reply to
Mike (ODO)

Reply to
Casey Tompkins

Which is probably why it's not SOP to cruise along the ocean floor at 30 knots!

Reply to
Tom Cervo

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