Thinking of Starting a Judging Club

Laudable thought, if misplaced. By that, I mean what are the criteria for your judging methods? If a club invites you, you'll have to judge per their directive, yes? If they want judging per a set standard, you'll have to adapt to it. If they want historical accuracy considered, can your judges do that? If they want strictly construction methods and finishing judged, can you do that? 1,2,3, OOB or Gold/Silver/Bronze? How many judges will you need on hand? There is much to be considered - though consider them you should. The organization should be completely intertwined with the judging method as the organization alone determines what the models will be judged by/against. If you develop a cadre of judges who know fit-and-finish, can they be counted on to judge historical accuracy - credibly? Lots to flesh-out here... As my boss likes to say: "Well, good luck with that." ;-)

Frank Kranick

I think it would be more interesting to have a yahoo group or some sort of thing where judges can exchange ideas from any where. But I don't see the practicality of expecting this group of judges to fly where they are needed to judge shows, even if they were highly respected individuals.

Have you thought, rather than a physical location at which the judges cooperate, of an electronic venue for judges to talk? Maybe a special section in here, but I think more likely in its own newsgroup of some sort.

Interesting.

---- Stephen T> Laudable thought, if misplaced. By that, I mean what are the

Stretch, I belonged to a car club for a number of years, we put on a model contest at our car show each year, when the club found out I built models I inherited the contest...lol. Well I built it up over the years from 10/15 entries to 50/70 each year. I was a judge and had to find others to help me (no easy task!). I found a couple of guys that would help out each year, I arranged for free entry to the car show for them, dance pass for the Sat. night dance, 1 meal free each day and all cokes free. Needless to say, they showed up every time!...lol. I also had to come up with prizes and really nice trophys. I also did door prizes like the big guys and the rest of the show. Since this contest went hand in hand with a car show we created a set of standards; (rules as it were and these were handed out at each show)

1.Believable? 2.Engine...Detailed? 3.Interior....Detailed? 4.Fit/Finish 5.Paint 6.and for Junior Div. obvious that (dad) did it? If it was highly obvious that dad did it, junior got disqualified and dad was told why! Each of 1-5 had a 5 point spread. 1 being lowest and 5 highest. We did have a category called Fantasy, where No.1 didn't apply so we added Uniqueness to replace that. 3 age groups; Junior....12 and under, believe me, the really young ones got cut a lot of slack for encouragement. I wanted them to learn and have fun, but at the same time do it themselves. Teen......18 - 13 Adult......19 and up. I had these categories; Stock, Rod, Custom, Competition, Truck, and Fantasy, each had an explanation of what fit each category. Each division had First through Third Place Trophies. We also had a "Peoples Choice" where car show entrants picked which they liked in all three divisions.

Stretch, don't know if this helps, but this is what I did. Your idea is a good one, good luck with it.

Mike G. Former member of A.C. Tumbleweeds

The discussions here about judging have seriously kept me out of competition. From the start, a competiton that relies on judging is subjective. There have been many stories of favoritism, prefered styles, etc. A couple ideas that come to mind about this-

1. A known modler being granted preference based on previous work or success. (Granted, if it still looks like junk this won't help. But if it becomes close, who gets the benefit)
2. Current fads of style. Whether it's preshading or inking panel lines. Just because I don't think it looks right, but don't follow the point gaining standard of the year, should I be docked points?

Yes, these examples might be based on some sour experiences, and I have not competed. But if this is keepeing me out of trying, how many others are in the same boat? I model for the fun of it, but would love to see how I doing compared to others and have a fare shot.

I think (and I agree this may be out of ignorance so enlighten me so I know the truth) that a standard of judging be adopted, am accreditation system be established and yes, maybe a "club" that can be called on for this. This could benefit in a number of ways-

1. If there is an obvious breach of the judging curicula, the fellow judges can sanction the "offender." Some form of grievence would be etablished, but competitors who abuse this would be known.
2. It establishes an independit pool of judges who have no gain in who wins.

1. The judging corps does not have to be one national club. But by being genuinly fair, honest, and good, will gain the reputation which will bring them to many competions. Whether its a little get together, a car show, or major meet.

OK... too much writing takes the fun away. It shouldn't even be a problemn, but if we are talking about it, and not for the first time, there might need to be a new approach.

Finally, someone please, talk me out of this and convince me to start putting my work up for critique so I can speak from experience.

Rich Cox

-------------------------------------------------------------- À la gloire éternelle de l'infanterie... miroite le nommé de RodgerYoung.

This is specifically for Rich, but if there are others who are reticent to try competition, you might have a listen too.

Every show should have some sort of criteria for judging. Most will follow IPMS guidelines (that you can see at the IPMS USA web site) although there are different methods for each club and contest.

I recommend a) try competition if you're interested in doing that and b) having got your feet wet with competing, try judging. You may be an apprentice judge in your first year (how we handle things in Seattle) and you can learn the ins and outs of how to analyze a model.

BUT be forewarned... although judging is the best way to learn quickly how to look at models and thereby improving your work, you will never look at modeling the same way again. Most people who judge learn so much that it's impossible to leave a flaw in a model that you build any longer.

I've gotten to the point that I decide if a model will be built to contest quality or goof-off quality. Nothing wrong with doing it either way! But if I'm doing it to contest quality, I know how to eradicate the flaws, and I know what the judges will be looking at.

Anyway... try it... if you don't like it, that's good too! It's all about fun, and if it's not... well, we need a hobby then.

---Stephen Tontoni Seattle, Washington, USA

--snippage--

[[[ about forming a judging club/class ]]]

This sounds good "in theory", but has little merit in the real world. Like others have said, judging is totally subjective. It is based on personal preferences, no matter how many "judges" claim they are being objective. This is no big deal....as it is just a quality of being a real live human being. Three judges could score a set of entries on one day....and look at them the very next day, and score them totally differently. Day one's results are no more, or no less, valid than day two's. Remember, model building in an *art* as much as it is "engineering", and appreciation of *art* is 100% subjective.

Hi Frank........

My Judging Club would review all model contest guidelines very carefully before attending a contest. This would be so that on the day of the contest....we would know exactly what the rules/criteria state.

As far as historical accuracy is concerned......I guess with technology today one of the judges could jump on the interenet (via laptop and cell phone) and do a lttle research if needed. Honestly.....most contests that I have been to focus on construction and presentation......not historical accuracey.....

The number of judges is something that I can honestly say would be a tough number to come up with. If the Judging team/club is highly skilled.....then the number of judges should be smaller I would think. We should be able to roll right along from one category to another.....

Stretch

Indeed, but what if the criteria differed from one club to another? If you employ IPMS-style judging this month, would you be able to implement AMPS- or NNL- (forgive me if I'm in error here - I'm not a big car guy) style judging next month? If an organization's requirement were to include paint and decals (beyond application now - using the correct paint and/or markings for a particular model), would you be able to pull it off?

Me, too but if this judging club were to be available for "hire", you'd need to be well-versed in differing judging styles/systems...

I helped judge at the IPMS Nationals in Atlanta, my first time judging at my first National. It took us nearly two hours to judge 23 1/48th single engined props (one split of seven, IIRC) and then jumped over to dioramas. Now, your judging club would be working local shows and helping at Regionals, I presume; not a huge amount of models (typically). Our local club judged at a then-open hobby shop a couple times and it was easy and quick. Some of the larger Regionals could be trouble but if a group of dedicated, conscientious judges were assembled, I suppose it could work if they worked as a team for many shows. Still, if ABC Car Modelers Club asked you to judge, would you know where a spare tire on a '66 Mustang was stored - if ABC Car Modelers had that historical accuracy stipulation in their contest guidelines? A sticky wicket indeed! As for the comments on subjective judging, sure, there's going to be that. But, it's a competition after all and the third strike in tonight's ballgame could be just as subjective to the fan watching at home. You'll never please everyone and there'll almost always be sore losers. In a competition, there has to be winners and losers, those who 'place' and those who don't; otherwise, the value of the awards is diminished and, dare I say, there'd be even more arguing over who's model is "better"... Just my $.02...

Frank Kranick

Stretch, As much as I hate to do this, I'm going to have to burst your bubble. A judging club would not go very far, especially with the requirements you are placing on the contest holders. You have to remember one thing - you see a kit at a vendor's table and you know that the kit is well worth the $10.00 that the sticker says (he originally paid $25.00 for it), yet you offer the guy $5.00. By nature, modelers are a cheap bunch when it comes to contests, and organizers are the same - after all, they are modelers. Do you really think that they will let you and a bunch of judges they don't know walk in for free and eat for free. You know how much money they would not be making by doing that?

If your club does all of the judging, you are going to need about 20 to 25 judges, maybe more. At about $5 per judge at the door that's $75, then the food is another $75, that is $150. A club sponsoring a contest can buy about 5 trophy packages at $50 per package. They can get a bunch of discounted kits at the local hobby shops (their sponsors) for the door prizes. You can buy about 1,000 flyers for about that much money. And there are a bunch of other things a club can do with $150 for a contest instead of paying for judges and feeding them.

That was the economic aspect of the matter. The resentment that will be felt by the local judges and judges from other clubs is priceless. You can be sure that they will not participate in future activities from that/those clubs.

But there is a plus to all of this. The one thing that one can do is volunteer to be an at-large judge at different events within your state or Region. I live in Austin, Texas (where else would anyone want to be) (IPMS Region 6), and I travel to San Antonio to assist with their judging. I have also traveled (driven) to Beaumont, TX; Norman, Oklahoma; and Louisiana (forgot the name of the town) to do the same. I did not expect to get any freebies, just the satisfaction of assisting other clubs achieve their goals of putting on a good show and have fun. One thing, be the best judge you can be, be honest, fair and objective when judging. Only you know how good, great you are - judge like you are trying to select the best model of the ones you have made in the last couple of years. Not an easy task. If you do that, you will earn the respect of other judges and eventually and with time, you will be called upon to participate in the judging their contests.

You can go it alone, or car pool. For me the average trip comes out to about $200 for an over-niter (that includes gas, food and hotel) and about $50 if I come drive back the same day. I don't want to mention how much the purchases come out to because that is a story for another time. I have met some rally good guys and made some good friends over the years.

Sooooo, having said this, I think the best way to go would be to be an at-large judge and do some traveling. It is a beautiful country this land or ours.

Ray Aust> Hi All,

I agree with what Ray has to say (below), and I would add that the single best way to ensure fair judging is to involve members of as many different clubs as possible. Realistically, this is going to happen by inviting members of other clubs beforehand to come and be judges, and by appealing as strongly as possible to attendees at the show to be judges. Then, the head judge must do his/her best to put together judging teams, each of which includes members of at least two, and hopefully several different clubs. By doing this, the host club will offer the best chance of fair judging, and it will gain a reputation for holding contests without any home-club bias.

Pip Moss

in article snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net, Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman at snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net wrote on 8/24/05 8:14 PM:

Stretch, my 2c worth here is that you have the right idea (but as Pip and Ray are saying) not quite the right slant on it. If you change your judging club that asks for free lunch and admission into a judging pool that offers to judge and mentor local judges in the best way then it may take off. Rays right in that most clubs will want value for money, and may see better value in spending the $150 odd on prizes and trophies; but if they see that the $150 odd is being put into their members and building their skills then they may be more amenable to the idea.

One final thing, calling it a 'judging club' will put about 50% of modellers and clubs off instantly, it will be seen as an elitist 'we know better than you do idiots' group. If you promote it as a resource for all clubs and give it a name that shows it to be a group of people who are at the service of other clubs and genuinely want to help, you will get a far better hearing.

Hmm, inflation must have stopped, that was a good rant for 2c.

Andrew