So, any other way of handling this?

Jun 13, 2004 36 Replies

----- Original Message ----- From: DGeraths To: Pearson snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: IPMS Pearson Modeleers


I attending today's Recon 7 model contest and I thought I would take a moment to write a note of displeasure regarding your events model judging.



I was entered in the category #501 and apparently my model was entirely overlooked by your judges. I stood by and watched a single modeler with standard and sub-standard work sweep all three awards and the Best Of award in the category. These models, apparently based on the television show Star Trek, walked away with awards printed with the words...



#501 - Space Fact.



There were two SPACE FACT models in that category that were both far above the quality of the winning models and they were both entirely ignored by the "judges". One was built by myself and the other by a very talented modeler. I have seen other modelers suffer losses because of poor judging at contests before, that is nothing rare, but today's incredible ignorance on the part of the judges was simply to much to bare. I do not plan to ever attend another Pearson Modelers event.



Good luck to you in the future.



Dana Geraths ===================================================================== Reply:



Dana-



First of all I apologize if the judges made an error and thank you for bringing this issue in the open. Let me address each issue by the line or paragraph. It is a long reply but bear with me.



I was entered in the category #501 and apparently my model was entirely overlooked by your judges.



According to the judging sheet (see attached), the 2 kits in the 501 category were not overlooked as they were recorded and considered in the proper category.



I stood by and watched a single modeler with standard and sub-standard work sweep all three awards and the Best Of award in the category. These models, apparently based on the television show Star Trek, walked away with awards printed with the words...



#501 - Space Fact.



If the error was in the distribution of the certificates, please let us know and we will mail your the proper certificate.



There were two SPACE FACT models in that category that were both far above the quality of the winning models and they were both entirely ignored by the "judges". One was built by myself and the other by a very talented modeler.



Again, the two entries were not overlooked as attested by the judging sheet. There is no question as to the quality of handiwork involved to bring these models to an experienced level of competition.



I have seen other modelers suffer losses because of poor judging at contests before, that is nothing rare, but today's incredible ignorance on the part of the judges was simply to much to bare.



The judges were given the IPMS National Rules that are posted on the RECON page and on the national IPMS site which were used as an objective guide in their decision-making for each category. We have provided the tools to initially judge each entry. Maybe we did not emphasized subjective judgment versus objectivity. We have no control as to what the judges finally decide on. Although "incredible ignorance" is a hyperbolic remark since again, the judges did not ignore your entry as they were recorded in the proper category.



You know from personal experience that many model shows in local and regional events cull their judges from the crowd and do not institute any kind of preamble to being objective in their decision making. Decision-making is based on individual predujices and experience.



Your email prompted me to bring up in our next meeting an abbreviated judging questionnaire prior to being allowed to judge that should elucidate objectivity as a goal in the judging.



IPMS USA has instituted that in 2005, the Regionals and the Nationals will adhere to the national rules and therefore mandatory for these events. Local contests are exempt. This is per an email from Kent Eckhart, the Region 7 coordinator as of 6 JAN 04 from Dave Morrisette.



I do not plan to ever attend another Pearson Modelers event.



We are sorry you feel that way but hope to see you anyhow in the future. I have forwarded this email to the board with my reply to see if indeed, we placed the wrong certificate and hope to amend that promptly if it is so.



Sincerely,



JD Quintinita IPMS Pearson Modeleers



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----- Original Message ----- From: DGeraths To: Pearson Modeleers Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 12:37 AM Subject: Re: IPMS Pearson Modeleers attachment included


I just looked at the attachment you sent.... Neither Mark nor I received any kind of award and in fact the three Star Trek ships walked out with everything in the category. How with so few models such confusion can happen speaks volumes.



Dana



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As I repeated before, if you are missing a certificate for your 2nd place win, we can mail that to you.



Sincerely,



JD Quintinita IPMS Pearson Modeleers ========================================================================== Reply:



----- Original Message ----- From: DGeraths To: Pearson Modeleers Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 12:25 AM Subject: Re: IPMS Pearson Modeleers attachment included


If memory serves, there are rules about a single modeler sweeping a category... yet these star trek models swept right through as well as the Best Of award in that category. Using your judges ignorance of the subject matter is frankly a poor excuse. You do not have to be intelligent to realize that Star Trek models are NOT space fact.... but are fiction. I would suggest in the future you consider giving Space Fact it's own category. It is sad and disgraceful that models representing the single most advanced aeronautical engineering ever devised by man do not merit their own category and instead have to be thrown into the same group as models of spaceships off of TV shows, trolls and dragons... Trains even have their own category.... when was the last time you saw a train model at a model show?



It was clear that the two space fact models were head and shoulders above the rather poorly done star trek models and I am certainly not the only person who noticed this. On the way out the door at the end of the day I was stopped by no less than 8 people who also expressed their complete shock that my work as well as the other space fact model were entirely disregarded.



I will not be returning and judging by the attendance level of the show, I am clearly not alone.



Good day to you,



Dana ========================================================================= Reply:



Dana-



Maybe you should read what I wrote.



If memory serves, there are rules about a single modeler sweeping a category... yet these star trek models swept right through as well as the Best Of award in that category.



The only IPMS rules we are using are the judging rules. There is no rules on sweeps on regional contests. That is the venue of the region and the club that is sponsoring the event. Did you read the rules? Did you assume there is a no sweeps rules for this contest? I just checked the IPMS USA forum and still there are discussions on ruling sweeps or not.



Using your judges ignorance of the subject matter is frankly a poor excuse. You do not have to be intelligent to realize that Star Trek models are NOT space fact.... but are fiction.



Now where did I say that the judges are ignorant? Read my reply again and look at the attachment again. Clearly the category is listed. Are you pissed because you did not receive a certificate? As I said If that IS the case then we will amend the issue and send you your certificate.



I would suggest in the future you consider giving Space Fact it's own category.



It does- #501 again on the category sheet and on the IPMS USA Category list and on the judging form.



It is sad and disgraceful that models representing the single most advanced aeronautical engineering ever devised by man do not merit their own category and instead have to be thrown into the same group as models of spaceships off of TV shows, trolls and dragons...



Again-#501 IS listed as Space Fact and you got 2nd place in 501. Read the attachment again.



Trains even have their own category.... when was the last time you saw a train model at a model show?



Last year we had trains and entries in the train category in order to be more inclusive of all other modelers- regardless of ability. Please remember, that the host club can add an odd category or two.



It was clear that the two space fact models were head and shoulders above the rather poorly done star trek models and I am certainly not the only person who noticed this.



Aren't you a "professional" modeler? Doesn't being professional mean a profound interest in seeing and helping others attain the high standards you achieve? I had high regards for you but no more-you denigrate other modelers- a shocking- shocking behavior for one formerly regarded in the modeling community.



On the way out the door at the end of the day I was stopped by no less than



8 people who also expressed their complete shock that my work as well as the other space fact model were entirely disregarded.

Maybe the Nationals will be more kind.



I will not be returning and judging by the attendance level of the show, I am clearly not alone.



Where is your club show?


Most Sincerely,



JD Quintinita IPMS Person Modeleers


DGeraths - grow up! We are talking about the assembly of pieces of plastic, which is hardly a reason to start WW3. If you only enter modelling competitions to win prizes and recognition, you are indeed a sad case. Let go of it and worry about something important.

RobG

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2 methods:

  1. About 20 grains of lead projected at high velocity from a metal barreled object, say .303 inches in diamter, manufactured by Messrs. Smith & Wesson (yes, sarcasm) or:

  2. A series of appointments with a psychiatrist for being so hung up about a pass time that is relaxing and NOT the entire meaning of life - if this person gets so bent over this then I would suggest that they either have no life, or have such a low opinion of themselves that they need continual approval and justification by others, or a too fu**ing high opinion of themselves and their abilities.

Let this twisted idiot go - I say your club, and probably the IPMS, is better off without them.

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I personally think it was handled well. I have been bothered in past in local meets by models that did not really fit a category winning awards in that category. I haven't said anything, but maybe I should have.

I th>

Thats because he is a spoiled child who can't get his own way.

I was at the show yesterday and also noted what I percieved to be some judging irregularities. BUT, the bottom line is it is only a hobby. These kinds of things happen and there is no way you can change human nature that I am aware of. Accept this fact and just enjoy looking at other's models , visiting and checking out the vendors! The most important thing I saw at this show was the lack of attendence and model entries. This was the Region 7 Regional Contest and it (to my eye) was like a small local contest. Why? And, why was this discussion posted here? My 2 cents, Mark Ford IPMS #24409

Dana,

Perhaps, since this is not the first time you have been disturbed by judging at the various NW shows, maybe it indeed would be best if you just quit going to them.

Another point worth your consideration is to just put your model down on the table and walk away and enjoy the rest of the show. There are many fine folks attending these shows, a lot of good deals and neat stuff in the vendor areas and the contest is not the sole reason for going. The Pearson Museum is a fantastic place to just wander around and enjoy.

I can understand that it might be a bit slim in the prehistoric critters and science fiction stuff you enjoy, but it would occupy your time while the contest is judged by folks who choose to perhaps not enter their work so they can help put on a good show and spend their afternoon doing a difficult job. Their reward is all too often someone implying they are incompetent.

May I suggest you keep telling yourself that this is a hobby, by definition it is intended to be relaxing and enjoyable. If, as you apparently have for a long time, you find it otherwise, perhaps you need another hobby.

Norm IPMS-Seattle

I'd agree, except for one detail:

The responses from JD Quintinita did not directly address why Star Trek models were judged in the Space FACT category (assuming DGeraths didn't edit or omit anything). Quintinita seemed to think the complaint was mostly about "My model was ignored, I should have received an award".

Certainly it's possible that DGeraths' opinion of the relative merits of the entries may be colored by personal bias. Maybe his model was better, maybe it was not; I wasn't there to see the entries, so I have to remain undecided on that point.

But I do think that Quintinita should have either explained why Star Trek models were given awards in the "Space Fact" category, or stated he didn't know why it happened. Whether an apology was also owed would depend on whether he had a _good_ reason.

At a recent local show that has grown quickly over the last couple of years we had a judging problem.

There was a "no sweeps" rule and a couple of volunteer judges from another nearby chapter decided to ignore that rule.

The catagory had to be re-judged. No biggie until an IPMS official sent the chapter a letter reprimanding the host chapter without even the courtesy of communicating with the local club's officers.

We certainly do lose track of the fact that this is "just a hobby".

Tom

[[[ Truncated ]]]

The "tit-for-tat" goes on and on, for some length, to no avail. But just remember: Model contest judging is a "fashion industry" type of thing. What is considered "best" is entirely in the mind of each participant and/or judge, and can change the next day. If the same models were entered in the same category a week later, and judged by the same set of judges, the results could be vastly different. And mistakes, such those in category placement do happen...always have....always will. So what?

You did not win. Again --- So what? Are you pleased with your work? That is all that matters....

Did you enjoy seeing the models in the show, visiting the vendor areas, and apending time with other modelers? If "yes"; then the show should be considered a success. If the vain "award" thing is all that matters, then one could save money and time, by visiting the local trophy shop, and buying onself their *own* trophy.

Maybe there were not enough entries in both categories so they were combined. I do not know, without being there. This should have been addressed in the reply Dana was given. Someone else stated they noticed some irregularities as well. Was anything said to the head judge or anyone in charge BEFORE judging and awards ceremony? Kind of hard to not come across as whining after the fact, especially in an open forum. The time to point out a potential judging problem is before hand not after. Putting on a contest is alot of work and a big drain on alot of individuals who end up doing most of the work.

My suggestion is next time instead of hanging out, stalking the vendor area, or leaving to grab a burger while judging is taking place. You should volunteer to be a judge. You have not lived until you have a disgruntled guy or mother of some disgruntled guy corner you after a show and demand satisfaction. Relax and get ready for the next show. Cheers, Max Bryant IPMS 25146

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I have no idea what's up and down on this Pearson show. I wasn't there. But while looking for something on IPMS rules I came across this site:

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It appears there was one "Best of" category lumping sci-fi and fantasy together with space fact. If that is correct the argument is moot. He was judged straight up and down. Right or wrong it looks like $30 was top prize. He'll waste a lot more than that recovering from the coronary over having not placed.

WmB

To reply, get the HECK out of there snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net

You know what. That's what I thought on first read too. I thought he was pissed that some sci-fi kits had been inappropriately entered into the space fact category. On second reading:

[QUOTE]

"It is sad and disgraceful that models representing the single most advanced aeronautical engineering ever devised by man do not merit their own category and instead have to be thrown into the same group as models of spaceships off of TV shows, trolls and dragons..."

[END QUOTE]

And now that I've seen the category list from the website I see what he's really pissed about is that the judges didn't attribute the same degree of importance he places on historical space subjects, by giving space fact its own shot at a "Best of" award. Which interestingly enough he would have missed out on anyway as he placed 2nd in a two man race in the #501 slot.

I think I'm going to clear my head and go glue some model parts together and let the fumes do their magic. ;-)

WmB

To reply, get the HECK out of there snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net

Re- "space fact" It has been my experience at numerous local and regional contests in the Chicago area that catagories may be split or combined depending on the number of models entered in said catagory. I would also hazard a guess that "space fact" would be a prime candidate for consolidation with another catagory. Also, I think you are a sore loser. Kim M

Max, you're welcome to judge any time. I did it a couple times around 10 years ago, and it is not as easy as it appears. Kim M

Greg

Nice to see you placed at the Valley Forge show. It was interesting to hear your name called. I meant to get up with you but you faded into the crowd.

True about the judging. It is the head category and ultimately the head judges responsibility to insure that consistency prevailed throughout. The no sweeps rule was probably discussed during the judges meeting and the judges that screwed up should have gotten the letters from the regional coordinator not the club that held the show.

At the 2002 IPMS National convention the 1/72 single engine prop (radial engine) category had to be rejudged no less than three times and you guessed it each time they came up with a different set of winners. What was interesting was that my POS P-47 came in 1st over Ben Guenther's Vindicator (the one featured in the Great scale modeling mag) I wound up presenting him with my trophy because I though an injustice had been done. My jug never won anything, even in the local shows! Go Figure!

Seems to me that a lot of folks are jumping on the wrong party here.

Unless I missed something, I don't recall that the guy who complained about the model show posted his gripes here to RMS. Instead, he appropriately brought them to the attention of a show official in a private e-mail.

Again, if I'm wrong here in the sequence of events, I'll apologize. But lacking that - and excluding the merits of either sides' points - why did the gentleman from Pearson Modeleers feel compelled to bring a formerly private e-mail beef public?

Kevin

Sorry about the lack of a proper signature

Scott A. Bregi AKA The Model Hobbit

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