Anyone have any good packages to send out a package of dwgs electronically and get them approved by a list of people? We do this manually with PDF's, tried using edwgs with too many problems, and hope to find a neater, more automated way to do this. Keep in mind most of the people these drawings are going to are non-engineers with questionable computer skills (ie, can't figure out how to download and install edwgs or won't be bothered).
Anyone have any good packages to send out a package of dwgs electronically and get them approved by a list of people? We do this manually with PDF's, tried using edwgs with too many problems, and hope to find a neater, more automated way to do this. Keep in mind most of the people these drawings are going to are non-engineers with questionable computer skills (ie, can't figure out how to download and install edwgs or won't be bothered).
Anyone have any good packages to send out a package of dwgs electronically and get them approved by a list of people? We do this manually with PDF's, tried using edwgs with too many problems, and hope to find a neater, more automated way to do this. Keep in mind most of the people these drawings are going to are non-engineers with questionable computer skills (ie, can't figure out how to download and install edwgs or won't be bothered).
sorry about the mulitiple post, google/internet glitch
What do you want to accomplish that pdf does not do?
Is pdf markups by the users not possible, because they don't have the full Acrobat package?
Do you use Acrobat Pro to make multiple page pdfs?
I seldom use pdfs for large drawings, so I am curious.
Bo
RaceBikesOrWork wrote:
I am not concerned about them marking up the dwgs, my interest is to have some mechanism to encourage them to respond. These dwgs go out to
4 or 5 pe> What do you want to accomplish that pdf does not do?
Your "flat" organizations sound like ours.
If you think you will have trouble getting everyone to use an electronic sign-off you may need to take to to the top.
We have a similar challenge here. Our top management is not to "computer savey" and that tends to drag the whole organization down. Without their buy-in you may be doomed.
You might try using the Tasks function in MS Outlook (if you have it) and Acrobat Forms.
Walk around a paper drawing thru your 'flat' organization. Sometimes low-tech is the easiest.
I concur with the comments of many above, and that ocurrs even in a group that uses computers a lot. Given no rules and structure, the people just say "It looks good to me."
I have resorted to a simple & VERY EASY TO USE Outline with key points & a line for comments for each person with an initial line under each key point (& sometimes notes on optional items in the design) which related directly to one form or another of an image whether in the outline itself or as a part of the package. It can be printed, so people scribble it up just like the old days.
I use an Inspiration document (inspiration.com) as I can take a screen shot of models, drawings or anything else and put it in under each topic in the outline to review, comment & initial each critical details. Sometimes the Inspiration document goes along with an eDrawing of solids or pdf of a 2d drawing. Whatever works. Sometimes I markup a screen shot with an arrow or Oval & text to accentuate the item being discussed.
Inspiration is steered toward education markets, but it is eminently usable in business settings, and can "just work". I never use MSWord for outlines, for all the typical reasons involving the crazy inability to keep formatting right. Inspiration can also to tree charts, and export to MS Word & Powerpoint, amongst others, so not everyone needs Inspiration to review the outline.
Inspiration is trivial to use to "read & view" a document, with nearly no learning curve, and is inexpensive in a multi-user pack (5 ea = 350 or so). Learning to use it is not many tens of minutes for a person who is used to MS Office.
For patents, maintaining a consistent time line and with official confirming signatures & dates is mandatory in a bound paper book. Electronic patent & trade secret documentation systems are for large companies who can afford to implement such a system.
Bo
FrankW wrote:
If you are trying to track this approval loop then you should be using some kind of workflow program that has some kind of escalation ruling for those that do not respond quick enough. This is part of some PDM systems. I use workflow that is inside of SofTech's ProductCenter.
But I would look at your processes. You state that you have 5 or 6 individuals that you need response from. If this is replicating a signature then you may have too many signatures on your drawings. From all of the signatures on the drawing only one has legal implementations, that is the approving engineer's. If you were to go to court on a design, you are not going to bring the drafter, the checker, a quality person, a manufacturing person or any of the other individuals that sign the drawing other than the engineer who created the design or a supporting engineer (sometimes this ends up being the chief engineer on older projects). So the signature loop becomes very irrelevant.
If you are using the group of signatures for a checking loop then you should review this process also. Start by looking at your checking staff, why are they not catching these errors and continue from there. Drawing checking is a very intense responsibility and needs to be done diligently. Then go to the engineer.
If you are using the signature loop for a design check, you are too late in your processes to be doing this. This would require a design review loop in a meeting environment early in the project way before you would even start a drawing. And the signatures could be caught on a word document for the design review and not on the drawing.
If you are using the signature loop as a notification process then this should also be reviewed. On all of our projects we do a drawing review, kind of a final check on the drawings. All departments must send an individual to a meeting that can make decisions for the project and has the ability to implement them. These individuals can make suggestions to the engineer involved but do not sign the drawing. All individuals do sign a drawing review form stating that they were involved. All changes to the drawings stated in the meeting are taken as notes on the drawing review form prior to signing it.
I have 2 signatures on my drawings. One checker and one approving engineer. Here is a section of my manual that describes my checking and approvals.
Drawing checking includes ensuring that there are sufficient dimensions to allow the item to be fabricated. Included in this task is validating format, layout of the drawing and insuring that the notes on the drawing are in compliance with current standards. Design intent, method of dimensioning and note content is not part of the drawing checking process, the design engineer must support these activities and review content.
I want you to know that this environment is not easily setup. I had major support from my engineering manager who pushed this concept. So this really needs to start at the top of your organization. As you might have noticed I work at an ISO9001/2000 company and we have a large quantity of processes and procedures to support these activities. We do a lot of activities in a paperless fashion but not everything, yet. You have to take small steps to make this kid of a process work. I would start with a meeting that would review current process, a continuous improvement activity. Review portions of your processes and as a group decide what and when you want to work upon. Do not push implementation, get buy-in form all parties and then implement. Once again you will need a higher manager in the company to support these activities and to drive a solution that works for all parties involved. Not an easy task, but well worth it in the long run. Hope you luck. iQ
You might want to check this out.
Given that RBOW can not get people to load or use eDrawings, he has a structural problem in management, so I doubt that a (relatively pricey) PDM of any type would be authorized &/or used, and one wonders if they would learn & then use Acrobat Pro if the high price was paid for it.
That was why I was suggesting using an outline format and screen shots with suggestion lines, and room for initials/signatures, if & when it was printed out (which sounds likely in RBOW's company structure).
An outline format of reviewing things is just cheap basic list form of work. Maybe his people would use it in paper form.
Bo
iQ wrote:
These are drawings getting sent to the customer for approval (afer internal review) that are getting reviewed by people such as:
These are not simple drawings of a part or two, but rather overall system dwgs of systems that are not fully engineered, but provide overall function info, foot print, utility requirements, etc. They are a method to ensure everyone has shared their info and resolved any big issues before we start designing.
There are no legal/patent issues involved. These are overall approval drawings for custom one-off automated industrial machines.
I understand the type of project where a system with lots of drawings describe it.
In the end, databases are just organized "lists" of information as are PDM systems and Program Management Software.
Hence, on an infrequent basis, one could organize a list of documents and the notes and questions concerning the issues to be resolved and approved as an outline, or even a pure text list.
I think that the outline format works (many choices here), and that hopefully the outline supports inclusion of images (at least & hopefully audio), and can support links to the supporting file names (maybe). Supporting links makes it easy for another person to open a file without having to go "find it".
Inspiration can do it & I am sure other outliners can do it too.
Bo
RaceBikesOrWork wrote:
Adobe is not the only software supporting electronic signatures. For documentation purposes (for patent process) you can write a description in a bound lab book, with date and signature, possibly include a reduced size copy of the drawing as a reference in the notebook, then have another competent engineer review and sign/date in your notebook that he "read and understood" the information.
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