OpenGL under threat?

Hey cadsters, Here is some news that has come out of Siggraph 2005. I have cut/pasted this from the OpenGL.org discussion boards. It sounds like CAD graphics might take a performance hit with the Aeroglass implementation in Vista and that we could do our bit by voicing objections through Solidworks on behalf of 250,000 users. regards neil

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.

In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass: a.. OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as

50%

b.. OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4

c.. No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision

What can you do? 1.. Write to your preferred ISV, hardware developer or OEM and tell them to bring this up with Microsoft (e.g. 3Dlabs, ATI, Intel, Matrox, NVIDIA, HP, Dell) 2.. Bring this issue up on other developer and tech-related web sites. If you have a personal blog or podcast, talk about the issue there. Windows Vista might end up being a great product, but not if OpenGL is crippled 3.. Post your comments to this message board (please no Microsoft bashing - Just make it clear that Windows needs to stay a great platform for the OpenGL API and offer any suggestions)

Reply to
neil
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For us dummies, what is Aeroglass and Vista?

Reply to
TOP

Reply to
Gil Alsberg

sorry guys, Vista is the official name for the successor to XP. Aeroglass is the new GUI which has transparent and animated 3d window effects - handles things differently sort of like scalable textures. AFAIK not much of it has been made public yet - it is missing from beta 1 -but here is a link to a short rather blurry video showing windows visible through another and shrinking

formatting link
check out the rest of that site for more general info about Vista
formatting link

Reply to
neil

...maybe I should have posted this in SW group and asked SW to comment...

Reply to
neil

Neil,

Just more proof that Microsoft cares "NOTHING AT ALL, WHATSOEVER, ETC. ETC" about technical computing, which comprises 10% or less of the market. The fact that Solidworks, Pro-E (and other formerly UNIX CAD systems), are able to run decently under Windows is nothing more than a fortuitous "ACCIDENT". It was never intended, nor was it designed to be, anything other than a business/consumer O.S. Their marketing and devolpment people have determined that the majority (non-technical) of users will be served by these things, and that's the way it will be.

Even If every CAD user on the planet were to rise up in revolt, the numbers would be insignificant compared to the world wide MS user base as a whole. It wouldn't affect their sales enough for them to even notice.

It's time for the various CAD companies to start looking at an alternate O.S. The old Unix based systems U.G., Pro-E, Catia, even VX, can probably port back to a Unix/Linux variant pretty easily. I know Pro-E can as it uses very few MS components. Solidworks will probably have to re-write their entire code base.

This is just the beginning folks, It's going to be a real mess.

You heard it here first.

Mark

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Reply to
Mark Mossberg

Well in some ways it's just incorporating latest technology much like Realview was in SW. Can't stop progress - however MS appears to be paving the way to make OpenGL redundant/obsolescent with this move - effectively knobbing the other std. Monopolistic behaviour from Redmond or not practical to maintain 2 types with the new structure - I don't know - seems card manufacturers think its just a policy decision. It won't be just CAD though it's the gaming world as well. The way I understand things is that DirectX will be updated and renamed WGF and everything will run under that umbrella. I believe this means with Vista if you run SW it will look like 'windows classic style' but still with Realview and the display will be somewhat slower unless you have a recent card where you can afford to lose a bit of performance. Expect to have to use a 256mb card for full Vista/Aero effects anyway. I suppose SW ultimately will have little choice but to rewrite their code for WGF.... neil

Reply to
neil

Successor to XP? For what? XP just came out as far as I am concerned and hasn't matured. I am still running W9x on one box and 2000 on another. The Mac is looking better all the time.

Reply to
TOP

Well I don't think I have Mark. I am just bringing you the news. I think you are over-reacting to the possibilities of a 'mess' but I agree it may be a set back for SW. A lot of programs will be in the same situation.To my knowledge this the first time shadows of restrictive practices in the graphics arena have emerged. The point of this matter to me is whether or not the MS move is fair on those companies already committed to OpenGL and that seemingly the supported version is a basic 1.4 when they were busy heading to 2.0. It could be that Redmond could be forced to carry OpenGL forward if enough people object. In the end I don't think anyone sitting using SW is really that concerned about what is behind what they look at. OpenGL is one system and DirectX is another. I actually don't know enough about the technical details of what is planned to comment - it may well be that WGF is superior.... I can't comment either on what SW might do to manage a migration or how much work there might be in the change if indeed they make one. If they follow an idea I had to restructure the program for multi core this could actually be a blessing in disguise... MS may not be all there is in computing but it is what has made mid-range CAD affordable along with Intel boxes. There is no reason to suppose another OS will not have substantial overhauls in the future either. I would be much more concerned with the basis quality of SW and sp than worrying about the OS being buggy or change to the display. Whether you like it or not Vista is coming - there will be a time not too far away when XP won't be supported any more. If you still expect to be in business in 6 years with a dinosaur system when everyone else is running hardware 10x faster than you in spite of 3d fluff well good luck. The price of progress is change, and change means new stuff. BTW it is a competitive world so I won't be paying anything to help you...also I have already stopped my subs in anticipation. sorry to leave you the dishes... ;o)

neil

Reply to
neil

I noticed that the Alibre freebie requires the latest directX. I'm not sure if that means it's not using OpenGL for model rendering.

So which graphics API do programmers prefer? Id software refused to develop Quake3 on DirectX because it wasn't as good as OpenGL at the time. Is that still the case? Certainly the driver developers would prefer to focus on only one API. But is DirectX any good for CAD, being primarily designed for games and media content?

MS has obvious reasons for doing this. I seem to recall they tried something similar once before except that OpenGL would not be implemented at all. I can't remember if that was 2k or XP. Obviously, someone changed their mind.

With all of the evil going into longhorn, I can't think of any reason to migrate to it except that MS will eventually force us.

I read that something like 50% of large Windows installations are still on

2k. I wonder how many will refuse to "upgrade" past XP.

I for one would be happy to retrain on a better platform, but I can't see SW making that effort, especially with the current dependence on Excel. Nevertheless, I think it should be done. The SW goal of providing inexpensive parametric CAD on a mainstream platform is going to become a liability.

Reply to
Dale Dunn

This may very well be an admission that there is a threat from *nix.

Reply to
TOP

Hmmm, Top noted "there is a threat from *nix."

Being engineering oriented, I would like to suggest that for high end personal computing software makers and end users, that the Unix option would be "an asset to be used to advantage".

The liability of hi-end CAD developers working with Microsoft making the only OS your software works with when that company (Microsoft) has lots of other priorities and its own products to protect, and then opts out of what it previously stated it would produce, is a noose around the neck of your entire lifeline of YOUR HARD BUILT COMPANY.

Microsoft told CAD vendors that "Windows will Work for CAD", but in the end their system has had lots of problems.

Meanwhile, who has come to the front with the most easily used, most stable, most secure, most easy to maintain mainstream higher-end OS? Apple with its BSD/Unix implementation.

Microsoft squandered its lead, and now Unix has shown it can succeed at hi-end workstations, servers, & even $499 entry level boxes as demonstrated by Apple.

If you want to see how Microsoft's Windows should work (forget color and style themes, etc), just spend $499-$599 on a MiniMac and see for yourself. Apple has shown it is possible to have hi power, and a low hardware price for casual users, and also good workstations, laptops, and even highly regarded servers.

If SolidWorks were to migrate, Excel would be an option on Mac OSX! So there. Unix, SolidWorks, and Excel.

Bo

Reply to
Bonobo

Neil,

I think the OpenGL vs DirectX is minor compared to other issues. 3D CAD in general, and parametric 3D CAD especially, is inherently unstable at best. Way too much stuff going on in the background that the user is totally unaware of. They just want (and expect) it to work.

Trying to keep an application, of this complexity, running at all, (let alone well), in an environment that is constantly changing is impossible IMO. Kinda like trying to be comfortable in your house when you have a crazy wife the re-arranges the furniture every day.

Linux is open source so it can be whatever you want it to be. Hardware will not be 10X faster in six, or even ten years. There are physical limits to

90nm format silicon, and most chip makers are still reeling from the expense of implementing it. Something new and ground breaking may turn up but I doubt it. (economics)

Personally, I think the MS only policy is a noose around SW neck. All that's left is to pull it tight, and kick out the stool.

Later

Mark

PS, no problem. I have an automatic dishwasher (17yr old daughter) :)

Reply to
MM

're-arranges the furniture every day' - yes a common malfunction not unlike dead birds on the door step. '17yr old daughter' - horror product- loud screeching sounds when you push the wrong button... ;o)

Reply to
neil

So you have a cat too. Ours tends to either drop them in your lap, or stash em under the couch (phew,,,)

Actually she's a real good kid, I feel blessed. Starts college in a couple of weeks.

Mark

Reply to
MM

lucky you...some of my household bots need de-sexing.. not saying which... :O)

Reply to
neil

Mark you noted, "I think the MS only policy is a noose around SW neck." I have heard that from software company executives who have to deal with MS code.

UNIX is so stable that NO ONE thinks twice about running a high end application on Unix or a server farm on UNIX.

So why is it UNIX is not good enough for engineering uses and Solids CAD???

No good reason, except it is NOT Microsoft.

Bo

Reply to
Bonobo

When SW began, there was "mid-range" Unix to go with mid-range CAD. It's certainly available now. Useability has always been at least similar to Windows. Vastly better, if you count stability against dumbed-down MS systems.

Reply to
Dale Dunn

Dale, I agree, and that is why professional high-end applications on MS Windows ought to be moving back to Unix.

Nuff Said

Reply to
Bonobo

Sounds like a good idea. Reporting back here the stuff that you can safely talk about would be nice for those of us who have given up on paying support.

Jerry Steiger Tripod Data Systems "take the garbage out, dear"

Reply to
Jerry Steiger

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