Hundman Commentary - UP Logo Issue

If you have not read the Mainline Commentary in the August issue of Mainline Modeler Bob Hundman explains the Union Pacific licensing issue.

Recently there was a posting on this newsgroup about the UP licensing issue and I don't mean to be redundant here I just wanted to comment on Bob's commentary.

At the end of commentary Bob started to go where I hoped he would not which was by making a case that shippers who influence shipping decisions would start shipping on the BNSF. Economics, not sympathies, will determine how shippers move their freight. He also said this could be a public relations issue for the Union Pacific. The reality is that the public is not going to be sympathetic to this issue at all. In fact the public will never know about it. Just the MRR community will. I understand he needs to approach it this way because he could not endorse telling manufacturers to simply ignore the Union Pacific.

Something is driving the Union Pacific to do this. I have not heard a reason that sounds logical yet. Could it just be a revenue issue? Do they want a part of model railroad revenues? Is that the business they are in?

Could be that the Union Pacific is worried about their trademark being used on things other than model railroad products such as a Union Pacific Sucks website and use of the trademark on model railroad products without royalties might make it difficult for them to trample such a site. By the way I have not checked if there is a UnionPacificSucks.com. Any webmasters out there interested in building a website?

Bottom line is it is unfortunate the UP does not sell something you and I could buy because if they did they would be paying the model railroad manufacturers to make more UP stuff.

The manufacturers are in a tough situation. Which one should step out and challenge the Union Pacific to see what happens? My recommendation to manufacturers would be for them to ignore the Union Pacific. MRIA (the Model Railroad Industry Association) should get the advice of legal counsel paid for by the manufacturers who have the most to lose with a licensing program and see if the Union Pacific has a case for this. But MRIA is not that strong of an industry organization compared to other industries.

It's true, it is the Union Pacific's trademark but this is also true - they seem like real assh***s for pursuing this issue.

How can the UP enforce the percentage of sales anyway? By what authority do they have to audit the books of the manufacturers? "Hey UP I sold about $2000 in UP stuff this year" Athearn could say. "Here's your $20 licensing fee now beat it". Athearn is not the best example because the UP could investigate their numbers based on the tips of an Athearn employee. But you see when you start thinking that it gets silly doesn't it? Are they going to conduct these types of James Bond investigations for all the model railroad manufacturers? Nope - they have a railroad to run. Attention Manufacturers - lie to the UP, that's what you need to do. Screw them for bringing this up in the first place. I know it's their trademark but screw em'.

By the way if anyone wants to reply be sure not to use my name in the reply unless you intend to pay me 20 cents royalty for the use of my name in a newsgroup posting.

Jim Stanton

Reply to
Jim Stanton
Loading thread data ...

From statements they have made it seems they already have (rolled over)!

Reply to
Jon Miller

I don't know anything about copyright law but I just assumed from the beginning that it was simply a move to protect their trademark. That perhaps someone at UP raised a red flag after they perceived that gradually over the years they had lost control or were close to doing so. Again I am assuming that the amount of revenue that royalties would add to the their bottom line would be insignificant and that couldn't possibly be the reason for it. They certainly do appear to be acting like bullies considering my second assumption is true and that it could be quite a problem for many small business. Not what I would expect from a company who from their new TV spots seem to be eager to re-generate and project a great public image.

Lynn

Reply to
Lynn Caron

There were significant changes in the law in 1996. Court decisions about those changes are mandating some actions by "famous" corporations. UP was clumsy. Amtrak and others were more graceful and you don't see millions of electrons being expended in model railroader legal opinions about them. Look at ads in the magazines for the past few years. You'll see a lot of license notes.

CTucker NY

Reply to
Christian

BNSF has a similar policy for logo usage, including all of the fallen flag roads making up their corporation.

On a side note, UP just won a contract from UPS, which ends up taking a lot of the shipper's traffic off BNSF rails. They must be doing something right...

Reply to
Sean S

yes - the UP shield is in my opinion one of the best. It probably paniced them to think that it could be lost or compromised, hence a ill thought out plan to protect it . I like your use of the word "clumsy" with reference to how they are dealing with the issue. If you think about it, it makes no sense for them to actually realize the negative impact their actions may have on their public image and decide to proceed with it anyway. Its quite possible that the people who are in charge of advertising and publicity are (or would be ) quite upset with those who are driving this. Perhaps if the right people knew things would change. I think the first step for modelrailroader is to *truly* understand their reasons for the recent actions.

Lynn

Amtrak and others were more graceful and you don't see millions of

Reply to
Lynn Caron

My understanding is that a 'Trademark' could only be registered for a specific trade, in this case transporting people and goods. Or has this all changed?

UK model manufacturers have fallen over themselves to cut licensing deals with our new private rail companies, in the hope of 'exclusive rights', hence legitimising the demands. No one on the model trade side could afford a court room battle so the legal position will never be tested. Keith Make friends in the hobby. Keith Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

Reply to
Keith Norgrove

If one goes to the site there is a list of the manufactures signed up. I see no major model railroad manufactures. It seems most/all are just ignoring UP as if nothing happened. Check for either Marklin or Trix as they have UP engines and car ads in all the major mags right now. My SWAG, they are all waiting for UP to try and take this to court. Then they will decide what they are going to do. If they all banded together on the first case the costs wouldn't be that bad. If UP lost the first case, really bad for UP.

Reply to
Jon Miller

My SWAG is that, that list is horribly inaccurate. I'm willing to bet that many more have made aggreements than is obvious.

Dave.

Reply to
Dave Mitton

Unless they band together and go down together. Than what?

Dave

Reply to
Dave Henk

There is actually little the MRIA can a do. The MRIA is not set up to interact outside of the Model Industry. The organization also does not have the means to engage the UP head on (of for that matter in anyway). The MRIA had posted a letter in the trade magazines with there position. They basically are acting in an advisory capacity at best.

Dave

Reply to
Dave Henk

Reply to
Jon Miller

They could protect their trademark with a very simple agreement that paid them a modest annual fee for usage, instead of demanding a skim off the top. They are trying to squeeze blood where there is none. Good news is, they will not get anything positive out of any of this. It hurts everyone, but sometimes you just get hurt.

Andy

-----------------------------------------------------------

formatting link
- Pre-Interstate Urban Archaeology

-----------------------------------------------------------

Reply to
Andy Harman

Is BNSF charging royalties on use of the logo?

I saw an article on UP doing a test run for UPS, wasn't aware they had closed the deal yet. Are they now sole provider of transcon UPS transport?

Greg

Reply to
Greg Forestieri

I'm no expert on UP's financial condition, but I can assure you that they could simply bury all but a handful of corporations in terms of being able to fund a lawsuit. I'd guess that annual sales of ALL model railroad companies is about what they pull in on a good day.

Legally, I'm not sure how they could lose... PR wise, that's a different story.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail...................

dlm

Reply to
Dan L. Merkel

It is on thing to require permission to use the trademark. That at least makes sense. But for UP to want a profit skim, get real. How about running your trains on time? Too many lawyers.

Reply to
MrRathburne

Sometimes winning is really losing.

Reply to
Jon Miller

Now HOW is that good news?

Reply to
Mark Mathu

If UP suddenly started raking in tangible revenues from trademark licensing, it would encourage other railroads to crank up the terms on the hobby as well.

Andy

-----------------------------------------------------------

formatting link
- Pre-Interstate Urban Archaeology

-----------------------------------------------------------

Reply to
Andy Harman

No, only the logos.

I don't think that the UP would have the power to license photos of their equipment as trademarks, would they?

Reply to
Mark Mathu

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.