UP, New Thread and the obvious solution

What free marketing does UP get out of model railroading? How many model railroaders have executives from large shippers, capable of deciding who gets their business, over to see their layout? How many such decision makers are going to say, "Oh, look, a Union Pacific engine, I have to get right on the phone and ship with them!" What real public relations value does UP get from model railroading that would even remotely have an impact on their business?

Answer to all those questions... little to none.

This isn't the same era when folks used to travel by rail, and UP passenger trains were an option. Model railroaders need to stop kidding themselves about their importance to the railroads. In the grand scheme of transportation and its marketing, the hobby doesn't even register on the radar screen. UP could probably care less if the manufacturers stop making UP branded equipment, because then the railroad would save money on trademark enforcement issues.

Hell, the amount of money UP brings in off licensing for the hobby industry probably isn't even enough to pay the salaries for the office that handles it. To claim that it's about the bottom line, in a corporation who tracks their earnings in the millions, is absolutely absurd...

Honestly, what percentage of model railroaders do you think you could coerce into boycotting UP models? Perhaps 10%, 15%, or at the very outside, 25%. Would this really make a significant dent in the manufacturers' market? I doubt it. Those modeling UP are not about to stop buying items depicting their favorite railroad for several years just to make a point or rather than paying a little extra.

The same is true in the case of the Athearn/Horizon fiasco. What percentage of model railroaders do you believe are going to avoid these locomotives if prices are raised $10 or even $15? I'd say that more than half of all modelers don't even know Athearn has been sold. Far more than half won't care. It might well be Horizon's own business practices that seriously curtails Athearn sales in coming months, not any effort by modelers. Avoiding or boycotting items or dealers just won't happen.

JB

Sean,

I've stayed away from all the petty discussions about the Union Pacific Railroad issue and its right to wage financial war against the insignificant populous as you suggest. I will however, enter at this point. Please consider this concerning Union Pacific Railroad and its right... I agree Union Pacific Railroad is entitled to its collective trademark rights as you suggest... As long as the property they are protecting is their own intellectual property. The United States Flag is NOT their property to use in an advertising campaign. I notice that they don't mention the flag in their "Building America" campaign, but their practice is clear as a billboard on their newest locomotives displaying that slogan.

I do not believe that Union Pacific Railroad is entitled to hypocritically infringe upon the national treasure of this great country in its capricious and illegal display of our country's colors on their locomotives as they plan and execute a legal strategy to extract money from hobbyist and America's disposable income, contributing to this country's economic instability. As I am sure you are aware of their "Building America" paint scheme includes the prominent display of the U.S. Flag. I charge they infringe upon the lawful display of our flag in an advertisement solely for money, taking advantage of a nation in mourning. Union Pacific Railroad illegally uses the U.S. Flag as an advertising aid to boost their prominence to perspective customers, as you suggest. Union Pacific Railroad certainly didn't enter this campaign or any other ad campaign except to enhance its revenue. Self admittly from their own web page concerning the "Building America" campaign", they state... "We began this effort in April 2002, through an advertising campaign".

I offer this Indictment of Union Pacific Railroad and demand immediate relief. I want the improper and illegally displayed U.S. Flags immediately removed from their locomotives and properly displayed at a place of honor and respect they deserve. The instructions for display of the U.S. Flag are clear, unequivocal and legally binding. Union Pacific Railroad violates three laws in their display of the U.S. Flag in their "Building America" campaign.

COUNT #1 (Union Pacific Railroad Illegally Displays the U.S. Flag) (Everyday)

"(b) The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender."

COUNT #2 (Union Pacific Railroad Illegally Displays the U.S. Flag Contrary to Half-Staff regulations on Days of Respect Contrary to a Presidential Order) (Everyday listed since April 2002)

"(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff thirty days from the death of the President or a former President; ten days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. As used in this subsection

(1) the term "half-staff" means the position of the flag when it is one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff; "

COUNT #3 - Union Pacific Railroad Illegally Uses the U.S. Flag as an Advertising Aid to Boost Their Prominence of Perspective Customers (Not Railroad enthusiast as you suggest) (Everyday)

"(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown."

I find Union Pacific Railroad GUILTY on all counts and demand payment in the sum of $1,000,000 per incident to the United States Government for abuse of the U.S. Flag.

I believe Union Pacific Railroad's claim to copywrite infringement were the results of uncontrolled or misguided legal beagles who exemplify Union Pacific Railroad's management.

I am strongly thinking about forwarding this in letter form to the court of record concerning Union Pacific's copywrite claim.

For more information concerning the legal display of the U.S. Flag please see:

"Sean S" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m26.aol.com...

Actually, the only thing on display here is your failure to understand the difference between "the flag" and the _image_ of the flag.

While UP cannot copyright the flag itself, they can and have copyrighted _this_particular_image_ of a flag. _Images_ of flags are NOT subject to the code of conduct. It's really that simple. It's no different that all those magnet and window clings you see on automobiles. They're _NOT_ flags, either.

It's perfectly legal. Whether you think it's tasteful or not is another matter.

BTW... We fly a flag 24/7 in front of the house - and it's lit at night.

Or between a railroad car and a model of a railroad car?

Unbelievable Putzes.

Joe,

I know you are going to want proof and I cannot give it at this time but I will do the research as soon as I sign off. I have not had to go through all the rules, regulations governing the flags usuage in some 20 years.

I do not think that anyone is allowed to copyright, register a trademark, patent, or otherwise restrict any object or material bearing or containing any portion of the flags image. I do not believe that there is a distinction between the words flag or image. As it relates to shields or heralds I will need to check.

This may take me some time so please no flames gang okay. If I am wrong I will post the pertenent chapter and verse stating such. If I am correct I will be doing the same. I suspect I am going to need to search the U.S. Codes.

I couldn't have stated it better. This post is exactly on target. Jerry

Actually, I am not sure what this is in reference to? It might help to know what I am researching for.

I am not a UP expert but I do know, like other railroads, the UP is placing American flags on their locomotives. That is certainly well within the law. Attempting to trademark that individual style of American flag is not. What else am I looking at or for?

It is truly unfortunate that some group members' only way of engaging in discussion is through bullying and name calling instead of intelligent conversation with individuals sharing a common interest, however different ideas. That being said, please read on:

" j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart. "

If something as small as a lapel pin or patch could be considered in this legislation, how can you reasonably exclude a banner the size of the size of a barn?

I thought the discussion here was about perceptions of ownership and such. My comments are supported with documented government laws and regulations.... Yours?

Clarence Bell

Jerry, Sean,

This licensing fee is not limited to hobbies. I am very sure this is a lucrative venture for UP.

transportation and

Clarence is quoting Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8 of the United States Code. Here is just one of the many internet sites devoted to the US Codes.

However the Code does not stipulate disciplinary actions or punishment for each type of offense.

Section 3 was modified to it's current form following the general thrashing the flag got in the latter half of the 1960s. I wonder how many here know what that was?

Okay here is one passage in support of my earlier statement that no one can trade mark the US Flag.

Flags - Marks that consist of the United States flag or coat of arms or any flag or coat of arms of any state or foreign country cannot be registered.

And the official government website:

(and look all the way down to the bottom) The following are substantive grounds for refusal. Registration may be refused on the ground that:

(6) the proposed mark comprises the flag, coat of arms or other insignia of the United States or any State, municipality, or foreign nation (15 U.S.C. §1052(b); TMEP §1204);

Art

insignificant

transportation

I was correct, please look at my reply to Clarence Bell in this thread. basically Title 15 of the US Code is applicable in this case.

The image cannot be patented, copyrighted, or trademarked.

You know you guys are really testing the limits of my memory. English Lit 1 was a long time ago. At least I remember the term paper got me a much needed "A." LOL!

Well brand image is brand image, how many house wives buy Cisco gear, yet you see Cisco adds on TV. Do you really think that an IT professional says hey lets try that Cisco stuff I saw on TV? I big part of modern marketing is brand image, having model railroad equipment with your logo promotes brand image, even though it does not result in direct sales.

This isn't just about this hobby, they (UP) likely see two things:

1) Their logo being used without compensation (more then just trains). 2) Their logo being used in ways they do not want it used.

Bottom line, either people stop buying the stuff or we get used to it, because if UP makes any profit off of this other will likely follow.

The only other logicall explination is that the UP execs just hate model railroaders, maybe their parents did not by them trains as children? I think this is unlikely, it is most likely the two points above.

jl

What is your job title with UP?

display of US flags from the uniforms of college and professional sports teams and the related sports officials. I would think it also needs to be removed from the uniform of police officers and firemen. Why don't we just stop the display of the flag all together, kind of like the Ten Commandments. You people are grasping for stones. This fee only amounts to a few pennies on a HO boxcar. What a crock Jerry

Otherwise known as a toy railroad car Jerry

Otherwise known as a toy railroad car Jerry

If this flag issue was to become a problem, I think all the UP should do is simply remove the flag from its equipment. Then raise the logo fee to 10%. That ought to shut you crybabies up. They are in the position of clout, you are in the position of nothing Jerry