UP, New Thread and the obvious solution

Title 4 specifically allows for the display of all items you just stated Jerry.

I state again, I have no idea what the registration flap was about concerning the flag. Can someone please educate me?

Art

the display of US flags from the uniforms of college and professional sports teams and the related sports officials. I would think it also needs to be removed from the uniform of police officers and firemen. Why don't we just stop the display of the flag all together, kind of like the Ten Commandments.

No, but his boss may well

Jerry,

Perhaps my original post missed the point with you. And that's okay with me. More explicitly, my point was that Union Pacific Railroad was being hypocritical in demanding a trademark infringement while they are improperly displaying the flag. This whole "flag flap" (as characterized by another poster) is just about irony and opinion. I wonder how serious a judge would really take their claim in court knowing that they are abusing the flag in a self proclaimed advertising campaign. Doesn't it concern you that they are admitting to using the flag in an advertising campaign following the growth of patriotism caused a acts of terror in this country? If they had displayed the flag out of patriotism, I wouldn't be concerned in the least bit. In fact, I like the way it looks; however, it is as wrong as copyright infringement. (No. Two wrongs don't make a right).

If Union Pacific Railroad wanted to play the (My Train! My Train! My Train!) game, they should have first made sure they were above reproach. Their way of doing that was to not use the "flag sporting" locomotives in the ad campaign pictures, while still churning them out of the paint shop. (My first post missed another violation of them displaying their herald to the right of the flag on the engineer's side of the long hood.) What I find most ridiculous is their web page copyright infringement warning:

"No part of this program, product, software, or item, including the look or feel of the program, product, software, or item may be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means, including the use of information storage and retrieval systems, without the express written permission of the Union Pacific Railroad Company (or other appropriate corporate entity)."

Now they are claiming to have copyrighted the "feel" of a web page?

I might also suggest that their business is surface transportation. How can they claim a model railroad engine/car or toy is infringing on their right to earn money under their established trademark? I would argue that it would take another railroad company to paint their power or stock in a similar paint scheme and dress their employees in a uniform bearing a likeness of Union Pacific Railroad Company so as to be misunderstood to be Union Pacific Railroad, thereby taking business away from them. Do they have a model train line? And where is public domain these days anyway?

If you still insist that this is petty and the money gained from it is minimal. I would say that Union Pacific doesn't agree with you. I hope by now, you have seen the trouble they have gone through to control their trademark. Do they have a right to? Absolutely! Should they? That's the issue being discussed here. It's only our opinion. How much positive press has this issue brought them? Does the negative press damage their credibility in the railroad business or do they just look down right petty? I think the latter. Someone commented something like ...does it matter to Mr. Business man if Union Pacific Railroad is taking money from model railroaders?... I say it might if Mr. Business man starts to think that Union Pacific Railroad is increasing their overhead for lawyers to chase model railroad companies and train enthusiast with money he paid to have his goods moved.

As to your assertion that the fees gained from them exercising trademark rights are minimal, you should look at the list of companies already signed up and paying (I presume)

. When you figure what the costs are, you might find it is significant enough to staff an office of clerical workers. Case in point from Union Pacific's site: 1

A royalty of three percent is payable on any product bearing a modern, historic, or constituent logo licensed by Union Pacific. The

licensee will pay an advance on royalties of not less than $100, with the actual amount of the advance based on the wholesale price

of the product(s) and estimated annual sales of UP-branded products. Royalty reports and fees must be submitted every six

months for the term of the contract.

Option 2

An annual fee of .5 percent (one half of one percent) of total licensee gross sales of all model railroad products will be paid to

Union Pacific. Gross sales will be calculated on the most recent completed year of sales and will be based on an audited financial

report. Fifty percent of the flat fee is due at the time of signing and the remainder is payable after six months. Payments of 50 percent

of the annual fee will be made every six months for the term of the contract. Licensee applicants with gross sales in excess of

$1 million should contact Union Pacific for additional information.

Option 2 is based on the assumption that Union Pacific-branded merchandise comprises roughly 20 percent of average industry sales;

licensee applicants whose Union Pacific-branded inventory comprises less than 20 percent may want to consider selecting Option 1.

Clarence Bell

transportation and

Gives new meaning to the expression 'talking out of your arse'.

Including on the UP. They are an American company so what's the beef. I think UP is within their rights, at least on the current logos and these cry babies are going to have to get used to it. In a few months they will have forgotten about it and be buying UP models like they did before. Jerry

Only Americans would get into a "flag flap". Other countries just don't get so hot under the collar about a piece of fabric. Sure, show all flags respect, but it is after all, only a piece of fabric.

Speaking of respect, how come the Americans are the ONLY country that don't dip their flag to a saluting platform in a march past?

Other countries view that as a sign of disrespect. :-)

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

...YOURS might be... ;)

Because that's what you do for a monarch.

We view it as a sign of subservience. Joe Ellis ? CEO Bethlehem-Ares Railroad - A 1:160 Corp. ___a________n_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_n______ ___|8 8B| ___ /::::: / /::::X/ /:::::/ /:::::/|| ||__BARR| | | /::::::/ /:::::X /:::::/ /:::::/ ||

---------------------------------------------------------------- [(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)] |_________________________| [(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)] =============Serving America's Heartland Since 1825=============

Thank you Jerry,

It's a little less vague now. While Title 4 sets the standards and in the case of Washington DC, sets the penalties for improper use of the flag, Title 15 of the US Code lists the general no-nos when attempting to register your ideas or works.

The way the UP displays the flag decals on the sides of their locomotives is fine and 100% legal. Atempting to place the letters UP, Union Pacific, or any other slogan on top of that flag decal is not. An application that bore that representation should be denied by the issuing authority. I say "should" because every once in a while the office screws up and passes something they should not have. This ALWAYS brings out a civil lawsuit angainst the government, and the government always wins because the regulation is in writing and the agency making the application is always responsible for determining the legality.

Thanks again,

Including on the UP. They are an American company so what's the beef. I think UP is within their rights, at least on the current logos and these cry babies are going to have to get used to it. In a few months they will have forgotten about it and be buying UP models like they did before.

You all keep discussing if the UP should be doing this. You yourself say they have the right to do it. That has been my whole opinion from word go. THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO IT. I, personally, don't have a problem with them using this fee for their logo, flag waving or anything else they are entitled to. I don't mind paying a few pennies extra. It will follow to other roads too. It is their legal right to do and I don't understand why all you people are pissed except it is getting into your pocketbook for nonessentials in life and you don't like it. I say tough Jerry

Roger,

All countries have laws concerning the use of their national flags. The US laws are actually some of the least restrictive in this area. Please elaborate a bit more on your comment about dipping the flag. I am not sure what you mean by the statement. Are you refering to military or civilian use?

Both, In the Olympics for example, all nations other than the U.S.A dip their flag when they pass the dais. It's a mark of respect.

In a military parade, all nations dip their national flag when passing the reviewing stand. AFAIK, the U.S.A. will dip their regimental flags (For want of a name) but not the national flag, even if they are passing the reviewing stand of a foreign nation. All other nations dip their national flag when passing a reviewing stand, foreign or home.

Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

Roger,

Thank you for elaborating. I will be up in the Sierra with the kids tomorrow. I cc'd myself on this and I will research it for you. I am not all that familiar with the IOC rules which govern the flag protocol at the Olympics. I have not watched the Olympics in years as our nations broadcasters have totally lost the intent behind the games and only provide the same events that one could watch on any Saturday or Sunday. Nothing new there... I will attempt to track down the IOC rules and I do know the military cerimonial use af the various flags and will post the pertinent parts when I get back. Unless of course someone else gets to it before me.

Art

"Art Marsh"

Thanks Art. I'd welcome correction(s) if I'm wrong.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

I was up at Horseshoe Curve a couple of years ago, met a guy with a big UP shield tatooed on his arm. I wonder how they are going to handle that?

Jeff Sc. Rail Pain, Ga.

They'll want a .5% royalty on any sales to tickets to see it.

Clarence ">

You're familiar with the expression: "... an arm and a leg..." ?

-- Joe Ellis ? CEO Bethlehem-Ares Railroad - A 1:160 Corp. ___a________n_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_n______ ___|8 8B| ___ /::::: / /::::X/ /:::::/ /:::::/|| ||__BARR| | | /::::::/ /:::::X /:::::/ /:::::/ ||

---------------------------------------------------------------- [(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)] |_________________________| [(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)] =============Serving America's Heartland Since 1825=============

I only have a job title with UP if they buy or merge with one of the eastern Class 1's...

And what other areas would it include, where a manufacturer would want to make UP-branded items? Ping pong balls? Coffee grinders? Panty shields?

One or two loaded auto racks probably represent more dollar value than what UP makes off licensing each year. In the terms that a railroad tracks its earnings, trademark licensing probably wouldn't even show up as a "slice of the pie" in a chart.

The trouble is, Jason, most model RR equipment is locked away in hobbyist's basements, seen only by the owner and other hobbyists. One UP commercial on TV probably reaches 10 times the annual subscription total for a hobby magazine such as Model Railroader. In marketing terms, it means UP model trains have virtually ZERO effect on the image of UP ... except for guys who have no grasp on the realities of the rail transportation field.

Stop kidding yourself, even is people stop buying the stuff, UP isn't going to suddenly drop their licensing program. The less trademark license applications that come in, the less the program will cost them. The lost revenue and costs will offset themselves.

For the record, I may not like what UP is doing, but I'm not naive enough to think that a company as large as UP is going to be adversely affected by a bunch of guys, who most of the general public probably thinks is looney to begin with, are whining that their toys are going to cost more...