Noisy track

I love the mockup you made. Nice job. More enjoyable than many layouts I've seen over the years. :-^..really. What scale is the mock up , if you don't mind me asking ? Are the buildings wood blocks or cardstock ? The freight cars look almost real from that 'altitude' :-) I've built many layouts over the years in different scales and many times I have said I was going to build a model of the layout , but never did. I was always too anxious to spend time on the full scale. I'm sure building a model would have saved me many hours of changes on the full scale. Thanks for sharing with us, I do wish more would share photos of their work. As they say , a picture.........

Ken Day

many cars have the

about 1200 feet of

other was code 83 with

on the other) to a

16th inch diameter

the roadbed around a

place until the

glue set. All the

similar bead of glue

partially driven. We

removed before and

the last 3 inches

before you put glue

48 and 30 inch

(such as Atlas code

necessary on large

play and tends to

used about 6-9

On the end that

height difference

Since you

soften the shim plastic

enough to lay the

AVOID GETTING ANY

turn the track over

easily removed if it

and closure rails.

near the joint.

for the operating

weights at hand to

at most 2 ties

fit under the joiner

the track. It

fiddling with the

leak (the glue

expansion gap of about

humidity. Without the

soldered for a

track) and a

'sunkink' that required

(track or roadbed). The

roadbed sticks only a

have to take up a

knife it was about

Also, we had to

outside on every

feet of track...

connection to the power

short (3-4 inch)

of a DCC unfriendly

plastic shim material.

look kind of clunky.

(the smaller of the 2

The scale of the diorama is 1"=20". So the scale of the 'models' would be

1/87/20 I guess :-). The base is foam core card and the 'models' are regular paper. I used Turbo Cad to generate the models, I measured the general porportions of HO scale models and made the drawings. The trees are just clump ground foam. It was fun to build. I built it as a proof of concept for the real thing. Jb

I've found that if I use an older car and push down on it with a moderate amount of pressure that I can "feel" the problem as the wheels run over it.

dlm

Hey, there's an idea: instead of any old car cut a slab of clear acrylic and mount trucks on it (or buy one of those clear plastic slab with trucks test cars from MicroMark, but why not build your own?).

Those transparent cars were a retail item back in the '60s. Don't forget to use solid trucks on it as sprung trucks will damp up some of the motions. The clear body just removes the forces of the hand towards twisting the truck on the track from the truck.

-- Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?

Thanks Bill, Robert, J Barnstorf, Fred, and everyone who talked about ballasting and laying track. Lots of different methods to choose from!

It seems like one thing effects another so I'll still be pondering which way to go for awhile. It was interesting how J Barnstorf's track got louder after applying the ballast. Perhaps different types of glue and/or types of ballast transfer noise at different levels. Looking at the all the glues available at Michael's the other day I noticed there are varieties of white glue that stay flexible after drying (one of the Aleene's brand) which might transfer less sound that the normal kind that dries harder. This might also benefit a situation that Fred brought up concerning expansion at different temperature or humidity levels (something I have to think about because my layout, although in a plexiglass case, will be going outside on Halloween night and though it doesn't get super cold here it does get damp early on). Glue that can flex a little and avoid cracking is something to consider (but will need to be tested to see if it can be used in the same way as white or carpenter's glue -such as in being watered down).

Bill, I need to read through more of the articles on your site! Missed the ballasting section first time around. I like that method except for this particular layout I do want the ballast to be up between the ties a little ways since it's to look like an old unkept backwoods track. Might even have some weeds or or other undergrowth in spots. Sprinkling some extra ballast in probably won't be possible due to the fact it looks like the layout will have to be stored hung sideways on a wall. so everything has to be stuck down. Still, that is the easiest method I've seen and might be perfect for a future layout. And I think I'll get that book too. :)

One last thing that's been interesting in this thread is the mentioning use of foam board on a wood frame as a base rather than plywood. Plywood is heavy, and since I've got to hang this thing up at times, bypassing that much weight would be a plus. And if I go with foam landscape too, carved with a hot wire (as shown in Bill Carl's scenery page), most of the weight of a normal layout would be greatly reduced. But I do think I'd have to make an extra sturdy frame to keep things from warping. Any thoughts on that would be enjoyed.

I've checked our local Lowe's and they do have all sizes of insulation foam board but it's all white (rather than the blue or pink stuff mentioned in the article) and it does have a "skin" on it, which I don't know if that's normal or makes any difference when carving with a hot wire tool (or also if glue will/won't stick to the skin material). Any experience with those issues?

Thanks ahead of time. Still taking notes!

~Brad H.

If you are going to get your layout damp or wet be very carefull about using white glue. It softens when wet. I use mattmedium to hold balast it is flexablewhen dry, thin when applied, and does not transmit much noise.

about

choose from!

pondering which

track got

glue

Looking at

noticed there

(one of the

kind

Fred brought

levels

a

though it

that can

will need

or

Missed

except for

the ties a

track. Might

Sprinkling some

looks

so

method I've

get that

mentioning

plywood. Plywood

bypassing

landscape too,

most of

do think

warping. Any

insulation

stuff

which I don't

a hot

material). Any

Brad,

The white foam from Lowe's works fine. I've used quite a bit of it with no problems. You just have to peel the blue and silver films off first. The silver side takes a bit more work than the blue, but it will come off.

Len

...stuff deleted

Remember that if you use foam of any type, even the Woodland Scenics white foam, it emits fumes when cut with a hot wire or knife. The WS foam is safer in this regard, but it is not zero toxicity. Even if you just file (rasp) it and make a bunch of dust, it is a good idea to wear a mask and eye protection; if you cut it with a hot wire, insure good ventilation as if you were spraying solvent based paints.

Welcome to design engineering ;-)

Concerning expansion/contraction, the problem is the fact that wood changes size with humidity. Some woods change a lot. We saw the problem with changes of season. The main flexural component seems to be the cork or Vynlbed roadbed. This is also the main sound deadening component. The temperature range usually isn't enough to cause a significant change in the rail length. If your going to move the RR from inside to outside I still doubt that the temperature will be a major factor.

I imagine that foam has no humidity factor at all and probably only a small temperature coefficient of expansion. If the RR is small enough to carry outside I don't think you'll have any problems from expansion/contraction caused by humidity or temperature.

The yellow glue only gave way after water leaked in significant amounts from a bathroom above the layout. The wood under the track was very wet. (In this case the track was layed directly on plywood to simulate a siding.)

For more than you want to know about glue see

I suspect that other glue vendors have similar use guides well worth looking onto.

The foam insulation does not warp so I don't know if you'd need an especially beefy frame. I never noticed any expansion or contraction issues either. When I took down the layout I took it to the dumpster in 4'x2' sections including the 1x2 & 1x3 framing and it wasn't that heavy. Still not trival though. See if you can find a skinless source of foam as the skin is a pain to work with but will probably glue just fine. make sure to use glue that is foam safe. There's actually glue specifically for foam insulation. (don't know if you know this already). One trick when using glue to build scenery is not to take the glue right to the 'scenery' edge. If you are using a rasp to shape the foam and the glue goes right to the edge then the glue causes ridges where the foam meets and it looks odd. leave 0.5 - 1 " of unglued edge for 'carving'. I've used both white and blue foam and both work. Blue gives a better texture and has less of a tendancy to give a stippled texture when filed. But if I couldn't find blue I'd just as happily use white. I always use saws or files to shape the foam as melting it causes some stinky fumes. I like to use a hacksaw blade as I can bend the blade to get curves. Then a little sanding with coarse sandpaper and I'm ready to go. Have a vacuum handy :-) I used to use a plywood roadbed but I found if I wanted to relocate track it was much more difficult than just hacking through foam. I could do major surgery on the scenery even if my wife was asleep upstairs. have fun

Jb

wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net...

As a matter of fact, no.

In thicknesses of 1 inch or more, foam is strong enough that you can actually go _lighter_ with your framework. I've done foam module construction, and it works out to be much lighter. I have a 2x6 foot module that can be easily carried by one person - with one hand.

For wood framing, I would recommend an outside frame of 1x4, with a 1x2 recessed 1 inch below the top like a sideways "T". This lets you set the foam down inside the frame and protects the foam edge from damage. Attach the foam to the wood by running 1 1/2" deck screws through 1/4" fender washers into the foam and wood. I've not had good results gluing the foam to the wood with construction adhesive. For a sketch of frame construction, see here:

Select "Links" from the top menu, then "Tips and Tricks" from the top, and finally "Lightweight Foam Topped N-Track Modules" from the list.

If you _really_ want light weight, use steel studs for framing instead of wood. The foam can be put inside the framing so you once again protect the edges. Your tools are tinsnips and pop rivets, and construction is fast and easy. A finished frame with the foam inside is every bit as rigid as traditional wood construction, perhaps even better.

I don't have a write-up on the steel frame modules - yet.

Unless your Lowes is unusual, DON'T use the white foam. If it has beads in it like a cheap cooler, the stuff has VERY little structural strength and is next to useless, not to mention it makes an absolutely _incredible_ mess. You want _extruded_ foam board, it's _much_ stronger and easier to work with. I've never seen it in white, that's why you see all the recommendations for pink or blue foam.

The foam _may_ have a clear plastic vapor barrier on it - it's pretty easy to just peel it off. Do so before gluing or scenicking - paint and glue don't stick to it well, and if using multiple layers of foam it can give you a very pronounced line between foam pieces. (I just strip it off the entire sheet before cutting..._

I use a Surform rasp for carving the foam, and keep a shop vac handy. For smoothing and filling holes, lightweight spackling is ideal. Carve sedimentary rock strata right into the foam with a wire brush - no plaster necessary. Igneous rock can be done directly into the foam, too, but it's a bit more work.

Take a look at the Photo Album at the above web site for examples - The Bend Track SIG gallery has several photos of rockwork in foam.

Joe Ellis spake thus:

*That* is kewl. Now if you only used real joints at the corners, like lap joints instead of corner brackets, you'd have yourself something really nice. (But that's just the woodworker in me talking.)

Oh, if you wanted to get fancy, you could even dovetail the joints - but this is a fast, easy build that doesn't need anything beyond hand tools, and the hardware corners help keep it square. You could even do it in an apartment.

Another thank you to all who responded to the glue-foamboard-frame topic (Charles, Len, Ed Oates, Fred Lotte, J Barnstorf & Joe).

I'm thinking now the outdoor dampness probably won't be a problem as long as I make sure no direct moisture gets to the layout. Between the plexiglass cover and the electrical power supplies boxed in under the base (the village accessory items use a lot of mini AC adaptors that stay warm) plus the lights in the scene (it is a night theme after all), things should stay dry and even at a low room temperature.

Checked Home Depot for their foam supplies. Same white foam and less of a size selection. Test peeled a 1" section on a 4'x8' and it does come off pretty easy. Didn't notice if it was the compressed bead type though. Will check later as I would prefer the better quality stuff. For carving I'll probably end up using both hot wire and file methods. Will work on it outside with a fan to avoid fumes.

I like the lightweight wood-frame Joe posted and the way the foam is set down inside (I was wondering what to do with the edges and that solves that). The size I am currently aiming at is about 2 & a half feet by 6 but I have to do some more sketches and measuring. Even though with the On30 I can get a track in that small a space, I'm realizing now the property area gets eaten up quickly with just a handful of structures. After this first prototype I may have to plan the better layout in modular sections to get everything fit in I'm imagining. More design engineering problems. :)

Thanks again! ~Brad H.