First let me say that I do not have a particularly strong feeling on this subject one way or the other. I wonder why some (clearly not all) hobby shops get angry when the topic of mail order and internet discounters comes up. I shop at Wal-Mart because they discount. I go to Sam's club and Costco for the same reason. When I buy a car I don't pay retail. When I bought my condo I didn't pay the asking price. When I buy a new mattress I don't pay retail.
Why do I need to feel guilty if I find a Kato locomotive for 20% off list online somewhere?
Should hobby shops be felt sorry for or should they try to become more competitive?
Is there a different standard that should be applied to hobby shops because they supply us with recreational items instead of basic human need items?
Is it rational for hobby shops to be angry at online discounters?
Should hobby shops collectively apply pressure to their suppliers (wholesalers) for selling to online stores?
Do hobby shop owners look at their business too much like it is a hobby and not really a business?
Is supporting your local hobby shop even though they charge full retail artificially boosting the industry?
Are the benefits of shopping at a hobby shop (location, take it home today, service, questions, etc) worth the difference between retail and discount prices to most people?
What can hobby shops do to get you to shop there more often?
I'm looking for some sense in this. I like my hobby shop but don't want to feel guilty getting a good price somewhere else.
I live in the Chicago area, and in the 7 years I've lived here, we've lost at least a half dozen very good model railroad shops. The inconvenience now for me to pick up small bits and pieces - detail parts, scenery items, structure kits, etc. is huge. The inconvenience to me is seems far worse than paying a bit more for a locomotive, so I always now buy items at a hobby shop rather than shopping discounters online.
I also travel a lot for business, and in between meetings, if there's a shop convenient, I made it a point to visit and if they've got anything I need and can fit in my carry on bags, I'll buy it for the same reason - if we don't patronize the local shops, someday none will exist and it will be very hard for the hobby to flourish.
Just my $0.02.... (which I'll gladly spend at a hobby shop)
A good (meaning "really good") hobbyshop is like a good tavern... nobody walks into a bar because they can save 50 cents on a beer, as a matter of fact, we all pay MORE for the same beer we can get in any retail store for less money. But we go anyway, we enjoy the atmosphere, conversation, music... whatever. A good hobby shop owner isn't a whole lot different than a good bartender... he has to be well informed, pleasant, and willing to discuss the problems of the modeler with them. If you were to complain to a bartender about the price of a beer, he'd probably tell you to take a hike... but hobby shop owners mostly grin & bear it, educating their walk-ins, knowing that many of them have come-in to do little more than pick-their-brains, examine their products, and then prance-off to hand their money to a faceless vendor. Bartenders get tips... they actually get more money than the inflated prices they are already charging... hobby shop owners... not so.
At any rate, I support my local shop, and I would like to think that we should work with those individuals that have to support their families, and would hope that they'd be sensitive enough to appreciate a dedicated customer when they see one, and reciprocate in some way whenever possible.
Of course, maybe if a shop were to operate like a drive-through window, handing-out bags of goodies witout having to absorb todays high rental, insurance & utility rates... THAT shop owner would be expected to pass along the same avaings as an internet-mail/order customer would expect, and rightfully so.
There are those of you who won't agree, and that's fine... but it's simply the way I feel about treating your local retailer with some sensitivity... but he must make a point of being a professional and offering the hobbyist the very best of everything at his disposal, you've had to work hard to earn your money, and he should be expected to work hard to earn his as well.
It's simple enough: Hobby shops need to have stock, retail premises and staff during shopping hours - that costs. Mail order doesn't need anything more than a spare bedroom and a few hours spare after a day's work, so the selling price can be much lower. The hobby shop offers the customer the chance to view the merchandise before purchase, and someone to complain to when the wheels fall off. The hobbiest can get consistant advice (good or bad) and see other items that might be compatible. IMHO the death of the hobby shop will be the end of new blood into the hobby.
Yes! Having looked at the discounters' ads in MR, unless I could make a $100+ order, I wouldn't save more than a few percent after shipping. Case in point: I wanted to buy the Alco DL109. After shipping, the discounter's price was $54.99. The LHS had it for $56.99. The discounters also seem to be limited for road names a lot of times. Unless you model what they have, be prepared to repaint.
Not to mention I get to put it on the test track before I take it home...and no interest on the credit card...
I also like the LHS because I can just walk in there and BS until closing time. It's all I get any more besides here. I had a bad club experience some years back. Seems the scenery committee decided to remove a mountain they asked to build...AFTER I'd put six weeks of work into it. You wonder why I'm a lone wolf? But I digress...
Jay Modeling the North Shore & North Western C&NW/CNS&M in 1940-1955 E-mail is now open snipped-for-privacy@aol.com
I don't know why you need to feel guilty. I don't.
I don't feel sorry for any failed retail business. Sometimes the owner just doesn't have what it takes and loses a lot of money... but that isn't a reason to patronize a business that is failing.
Well yes... in the sense that we can do without hobby shops if we have to.
No, but the fact that they do get angry shouldn't be too surprising. It's how they deal with it that matters.
They can apply whatever pressure they can wield, for all the good it will do. Only a handful of hobby shops are big enough to matter, and they are already selling mail order and on line themselves.
Some do, and that's ok as long as they understand they are not going to make any money at it. Some people can afford it as a hobby. If I won the lottery, I'd probably open up a hobby shop just because I'd love to do it. But I'd never try to make a living at it... certainly not in this town.
There is nothing artificial about any choice made by any consumer for any reason. We're all part of the laws of physics and economics. If someone feels compelled to buy at retail *for that reason alone*, it's their choice. Usually there are additional reasons.
I like having a good hobby shop to visit. Sometimes can have very friendly conversations. But I can't spend any money there or help their business out if they don't have anything I want to buy.
Stock more stuff! If you don't have it, I can't buy it.
Don't be a Toledo Blowhard. Insult me,the last thing you'll see is the crack of my butt on my way out the door. Permanently.
Don't lie to me. I've been around too long to buy BS.
Don't treat me like I don't know what I'm looking at. I do.
Business hours for working people. Evenings, Saturdays, Sundays.
Anybody who owns a Hobby Shop that gets angry to a customer is in the wrong business. I get more than my share of what some call absurd questions ( I prefer uninformed). In my shop I get inquiries for the Traxxas T-Maxx cars. I will not carry nor get these under any circumstance. I do explain why and in detail I cannot afford to get these at the prices other sell these. Why? Because two other local shops are basically giving these away in order to sell add on parts. Making $20 on a $400 sale is not realistic for me. These add on parts can catch up with you when next months new part shows up (latest fad part). I do tell them that's it's a great price for the basic car and not to forget the other mandatory items they will need (never mentioned until you have your hands on one) to operate the car.
I don't know. I own a Hobby Shop and sometimes recommend Intenet places for items (again these are items I'll never get for stock but may have ought for myself).
Why should you even think of feeling sorry. As the Godfather said "It's nothing personal it's business". Hobby Shops that prosper take note of changes and either adapt or perish. Whining doesn't ever help.
I don't get angry at the actual discounters. However when a vendor sells to them on a different basis then they will to me then I get mad. Then I make my case. For instance we as a retail operation generally have to submit paperwork to include Yellow Page Ads, Photos of interior and exterior of the shop, banking and credit info. When a strictly mailorder operation working out of a basement sells product from this vendor at what my cost is that's a red flag. I will call the vendor and ask for an expanation. I will back that up with documentation as appropriate. Sometimes they drop the discounter an other times it's so what? When it's so what I'll drop them and make it a point to pass along this information to other shop owners. An example of a distributor effectively low balling the shop was with LifeLike engines. I'd place orders well in advance. The distributor fills these orders and within a week dumps off the remaining inventory for significantly less than cost to retailers. The mail order site was selling these for $5 less than my cost. This distibutor I dumped and I made it a point to note what was happening to LifeLike.
Never happen. However the retailer can talk with his money. Go elsewhere. That's what I do. In the case of wholesalers that have there own online discount site make a case for them to not bury you or you leave.
Those that do will seldom survive. It has to be business first and Hobby second. Same is true of ordering what you like and want and ingore your customers wants. Listen to your customers! You can get a good consensus of what will be a viable product but just listening. When I go to the International Hobby Show I always bring back extra catalogs to pass around to the various clubs to look over. I also virtually never buy at the show. Store owners can often fall victim to impulse buying and get stuck with a loser.
Likely just delaying the closing of that shop. I offer discounts to any and all clubs. I also set reasonable discounts on high dollar items (engines, R/C equipment, and the pricier plastic and wood models). Glues, paints, etc are full retail as are parts. If you want 30% of these you'll need to go elsewhere because likely you pretty much shop full time on the Internet and I won't sway you from all the good deals. Intangibles for buying locally are you have it now. You can test that engine before leaving, any problems I'll fix it (yes I even take parts out of other like kits if that's the fastest way). Order from me and a part doesn't come in when I said and I'll make you a deal. Recent example was a guy needed a new R/C car chassis and had a deadline (hardcore local racer) to get it. He was going to drive across town for one. I told him I'd guarantee delivery and price or I'd sell it at cost. It was there and he comes in often now. It's a matter of making a statement like that sometime to win customers. Another fellow I left an item off an order. I apologized explained what happened and it to him a few days later when I got it.
IMO , mail order houses have helped to perpetuate the hobby by their advertising ,showcasing new items and making items available to people in the most remote areas. Call in an order and a few days later the little brown truck pulls up with your goodies. Once the MR'ing bug has bitten someone most seek out a (local) hobby shop even if it may be an hour or two drive just so they stand at the counter and drool over the real stuff instead of having the pages in their magazines stuck together.( I'm assuming most modelers drool over neat stuff like I do) Then the guy behind the counter can take it out of the case and let you actually touch it , caress it and maybe sometimes you even get to see and hear it run on a 3 or 4 foot section of test track or let you open a box and see all the goodies inside that kit you've been wanting. I love to browse through the decal display , detail parts and you just can't do that in a mail order book.
I know of many hobby shops that have closed their doors and they say the reason is mail order discount houses. I feel that hobby shops can use mail order houses to their advantage. if they just try. Unfortunately, most owners just continued their full retail pricing and do nothing but bitch to the customers about how the mail order houses were doing them in....and finally they closed their doors , many , IMO , done themselves in. There were a couple shops in my area that would not carry any magazines at all because of the mail order ads.Said they didn't want to sell advertising for their competitors. Look at all the nice ads in the magazines and the beautiful wish book from Walthers with all the neat color pictures. This is essentially FREE advertising for the shop if it's used right. The modeler, being exposed to all these items will want to buy more and by watching the these ads a shop owner can get a good idea of the inventory he needs to carry and a pricing guideline.
If the shop owner will price his leader items.....mainly engines, rolling stock and maybe track , close to mail order prices I believe most modelers will shop and continue to shop there. Most mail order houses do not do any deep discounting on their odds and ends such as building kits , detail items , paints,scenery products etc and this is where the shop has chance to make a decent percentage of profit.
I don't know about you guys , but I spend much more on small items , kits , details etc than anything else and I suspect most modelers do once they build a decent sized roster.
But no matter how good the price and how extensive the inventory , the most important ingredient is friendly , courteous service. And, a shop owner needs to let the customer know how much he or she is appreciated.
I owned a shop for a few years and I found the mail order houses helped me.Customers would come in looking for things they saw in the mail order ads and I would usually have those items if they were availble. I would have the mail order books including those for RC airplanes and cars right on the counter so cutomers could browse through them. I discounted also and I got many special orders that way that I would not have gotten otherwise.
Also, I would order any item , no matter how small or inexpensive because to the customer that was a very important item.
After a short while I had to close my shop because of health problems but the business was still going strong when I closed.
I suppose I've used up my posting alottment for the next couple weeks so I'll stop right here.
Ken Day
Of course , the next essential >First let me say that I do not have a particularly strong feeling on
Move closer to me, 50 miles each way takes too much of my fuel budget and I detest driving in the city anyway so only go about every three months. Alan in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8 VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address
Wal-Mart needs to have stock, retail premises, and staff during shopping hours -- but they can sure as heck discount everything.
I think the computer age is the beginning of the end of new blood into the hobby. A friend and I were discussing this recently; he works at one of the well-known shops in the San Diego area occasionally. he said he has not seen a younger model railroader in there in ages -- basically it's all "old timers" like himself and me (were both above
50...) and nothing else. And, the folks who run the N-scale specialty dealer that I buy from up here in Orange County said the very same thing.
The younger generation is spending more time doing things on the computer than anything else....and I know a LOT of people who, since Microsoft Train Simulator came out, have basically let their model railroads collect dust most of the time. (I admit, myself included there....)
Very good points, Andy. I do patronize a local dealer, the same one I have been patronizing since they started business a decade ago. They seem to be doing quite well. They DO discount most items in the store
-- but about 60% of their business IS mail order.
Their only problem is....their hours suck!! They are only open for two hours on Fridays (11 a.m. - 1 p.m.) which they claim is for religous reasons. (I have NO problem with that, except that they are open all day Saturday...which is supposedly their Sabbath!!) But they are closed on Sundays and Mondays. Me, I'm lucky in that I get off work at 12:30 p.m. (gotta go in before the roosters to start though) so I can get into the shop whenever I need during the week.)
Shoot fire Andy, you hit the nail on the head there. Between work and the kids, about the only free time I have is on Sunday. Why aren't many shops open on Sunday?
I have been lurking on this NG for a few weeks now but couldn't help responding to this message...
I might be a strange individual but I spend all day in front of a computer designing PC boards and when I go home, I would rather not even look at my computer. As a matter of fact, It has been off for about 2 weeks. Probably the oddest thing is I am 26 years old and have been using computers since I was about 5 (Apple II if my memory serves me correctly).
My hobbies include brewing beer, cross stitching, and N scale model railroads. (have an apartment otherwise it would be HO.) All three of these hobbies lend themselves to specialty shops or internet shopping. The only one I purchase on-line for is the cross stitching because for some reason the shops think I am "funny" because I am a guy that enjoys cross-stitching. (drives me nuts!) I however will do everything in my power to purchase all my materials from my local home brew and hobby stores. It's a shame that people aren't willing to spend a few extra dollars to keep this social aspect of the economy going. I am not a member of any club but I am sure there are dues required to join most of them. What is the difference between that and paying a little extra in a store to have a cup of coffee and shoot the breeze with the owner or other customers?
Anyway, that is just how I feel, right, wrong or indifferent.
Dave, thank you for the explaination and your thoughts. It makes much more sense to me now. It is a tough business I imagine but an important one I know.
Wow, that's a sharp question! I buy from all around the World. I also support my local hobby shops when they have anything that I want, but I usually end up with credits or cheques from those establishments.
Former football player Roosevelt "Rosie" Grier enjoyed needlepoint. Use him as your role model. Nobody's going to mess with a 6' plus 260 pound football lineman.
Jay "If women don't find you handsome, at least make sure they find you handy."
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