Toys or Models?

Since this thread needs some lightening up, I'm going to take Paul Cutler's statement out of context for fun:

E-w-w-w. How perverse.

Dieter Zakas

Jerry wrote: : He told me that "when I bacame an adult I put away my toys".

My response would be simply: "How sad, why?"

Scott

Too late... :-)

I agree. However, if it is "for children", then, by definition, it is a toy.

A toy is, also by definition, something of little real value. If it has real value, then it is not a toy. If it is delicate, it is hardly for children.

The final definition of the word "toy" is something unimportant. If your auto is unimportant to you, then it is a toy. If it is important, then it is not a toy. For example, if one has car and thinks nothing of it because it is just a plaything, then it is a toy because it is unimportant. If someone else owns the car and uses it to make their living, then it is not a toy because it is importnant. To me, my model trains are important, therefore, to me, they are not toys. If one does not like these defintions, then write to Random House and get them to change their dctionary. ;-)

Hey, I just use the defintion in my dictionary. Silly me... LOL

The argument can easily be made that Beany Babies are meant for children. Teddy Bears are also for children. Therefore, since they are meant for children, they are therefore toys.

Nope. I tease them, just as much as they tease me for "counting rivets", but I would not "look down" on someone for not having the best stuff out there. I do try to encourage them to reach higher goals, but that's it. The only thing that sticks in my craw is the "reverse snobs" who look down their nose at the detail freaks like me. :-)

No, it's more like people are making up their own definition of the word "toy" and applying it any way they want. LOL Again, look in the dictionary, and you will see that one's attitude towards an object is what makes it a toy or not (that whole "unimportant" bit). And, using your definition as it applys to your Duc, and then apply it to a real gun, and it doesn't hold up. Say I owned a M-2 .50 Cal. machine gun. I would not need it, it would not perform a required task, it would only be used for my enjoyment, and, by your definition, it would be considered a "toy". I'm sorry, but that does not hold water. BTW, the reason I keep bringing up a gun is that I can think of nothing else that is more of an anti-toy than a real gun.

Now we are back to models = toys. Well, not all models are toys. Again, I bring up the 6' long U.S.S. Enterprise (CVN) model in the Smithsonian. I don't think you could find too many people that would call that a toy. ;-) Also, the "model gun" issue. Most model guns are meant for children. Note that most have bright orange ends to signify this; they fire darts, BB's, or caps. These are made for children, so therefore, they are toys. There are exceptions, of course. In Japan (and in a more limited amount, the US), there is a system with accurate replicas of modern weapons that fire soft BB's called "Airsoft", and is used in paintball-like games. Since these can cause real damage (you must wear goggles), I would not consider these toys, just like paintball guns are not toys. Heck, it's even scribed in the barrell of my Tippman Pro-Lite paintball gun: "THIS IS NOT A TOY".

Sigh. I just wish people would open a dictionary once and a while... LOL

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

Mattel guns are meant for children, therefore they are toys. My model trains are not meant for children.

So, everything we "play with" is a toy? Kids play with matches all the time. Are matches toys?

The defintion is of a toy is something "of little real value". I consider the hundreds of dollars and the hours of time invested in my models to be a real value. Therefore, to me, my models are not toys. You can call my models "toys" all the live long day, but it won't change my opinion on my models.

It's more of who the trains are made for. Lionel, back in the old days, was certainly made for children. Amerian Flyer, too. I would say that the old Tyco, Life-Like and Bachmann HO sets of the 1970's and 1980's were certainly toys, as they were made for children. Modern, high end models, like P2K, Atlas Master, Genesis, Overland, Key, MTS, etc., are made for adults.

Sigh. My 10 year old nephew sometimes operates my layout, but that doesn't turn all my models into toys. These models of mine are not meant (that is, built for) children. That some children do buy, own, and use these models does not make them toys.

No. If their entire layout is using nothing but trains built for children, they they are playing with toys. If they are using nothing but trains built for adults, then they are playing with models. Age of the user has nothing to do with it. It is what age group they are manufactured for that defines "toy".

Let's not get disrespectful...

And which toys would that be? I still have some Legos, Transformers, GI Joe's, and M.A.S.K. toys in storage (my nephews love these things). LOL

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

I didn't say anything about dying. Once I am dead I have no trains and someone else can "win" for a while. :-)

But now that I'm thinking about it... since the Bible talks about Solomon's train filling the Temple, will there be model trains in heaven?

Yes, and with no space limitations either.

of course if you go the other way, all you can run is the UP line.

Pac Man wrote: (whole message cut down)

That brings up an interesting tangent. When is a model "right". Is it right when it is exactly scaled on every dimension like the real thing, or when it scales down and compresses into an entire scene that looks right. Sort of the view from the airplane or view from my back fence. Both are technically "right" but different. I guess from an artistic viewpoint the question would be where is the proper vanishing point for a model?

I thought the general theroy of this group was it was not a good thing to try to impress others. Jerry

I think it is fine if you think your trains are important to you. Just as long as you understand they are probably not important to anyone else and considered toys by just about everyone. Jerry

I just have a couple more (long winded) points:

The model ship quoted above in this thread is a historically significant static display (go back to my original post on this thread), again if you build historically accurate static models then they are not toys, once you "play" with them they are toys. If there is a bunch of guys flying model planes on and off it then it becomes a toy.....

An accurate model gun is a model (and if anyone here thinks that people do not model them, this would make them pretty much the same as the people outside of our own hobby that think you are just playing with toys). Once the guy picks it up and runs around going bang bang well then you must consider it a toy, I would think this would be hard to argue against??. Why would trains be different?

Just because the dictionary presents you with a definition that you like that does not mean that the definition is a still in modern use. I could spend all day outlining where the definitions in the dictionary are completely outdated and do not reflect the modern use of the word. In modern use "toys" are no longer just unimportant or only for children, the dictionary will eventually catch up, as it almost always does. It is unlikely the dictionary is refering to personal importance, I think they are refering to importance in general. Your trains are important to you but it is unlikley they are important to society in general?? But here is where the dictionary fails us, since it is not clear....

One could also argue that this hobby got its start as toys for little boys, it morphed over the years when those little boys became adults and continued to build and play with their "toys." Now just becuase some companies took advantage of this and made expensive, better, more accurate versions of said toys does not mean that they magically are no longer toys. Again, if I understand you correctly: if I run the tyco gear on my layout I was given as a child I am playing with toys, but if I put my latest brass creation on the layout I am not (I am talking about the value point not importance). What happens when I have one train with my old tyco gear and my brass, do I say well I am only 50% playing with toys? I can live with the term toys since for me model railroading started when I was a child, and I still have and enjoy some of that equipment. Just becuase I paid more for something now that does pretty much exactly what my tyco gear does it does not mean, magically, it is no longer a toy? Many people here have been modeling trains starting with the likes of tyco, non-stop since they were children, at what exact point in time were they no longer playing with toys (how much did they have to spend, how old did they have to be, etc.)? (BTW that tyco gear is of greater personal value, and importance to me then anything I purchased as an adult, yet I am sure most of the "a modelrailroad is not a toy" crowd would consider them toys). This is the core issue of toy vs model, one person's toy is another's model. There are many people that will consider vintage three rail O scale not playing with toys, while others in the hobby will. Others yet will consider the entrie hobby playing with toys (like myself, and others here), so be it. In the end it started as toys (if not the entire hobby but personally as children for many here), I (as do many) do not beleive there is some age or value that all of a sudden changes it from toys to not being toys.

Finally, if you cannot convince the other people in your hobby you are not playing with toys it is unlikely you will convince an outsider (and you will forever be playing with toys).

One could, but one would be dead wrong in doing so.

Now I am no expert in the origins of this hobby, but my impression is that it started in old tin plate and/or wooden toys. Manufactures then added motors etc. and eventually over time we had the likes of early 3 rail. Now if I am dead wrong tell me how...

What I do know is that the hobby for many (maybe even most) started as children with our very first trainset (toys). So again at which point in our own lives did our toys make the magical transition to not being toys?

jl

Wrong again jerk. This hobby got it's start with Christmas toy trains over a 100 years ago. They were toys then and you are playing with toys now, regardless of what you say. As you can see, more people involved in the hobby here agree with that than disagree with it so go pump the chute boy Jerry

That much is apparent.

Model railroading's origins are in the UK and Europe

Google on manufacturers like Basset-Lowke, Bing or Marklin.

Yes, "Michael Jackson".

Not exactly - he said "what another MAN does ..."

Thanks for the info, I looked up Basset-Lowke, the majority of refreences I found listed them as a toy manufacturer. Their web site said "Bassett-Lowke were the pre-eminent suppliers of model railway and model engineering systems in Great Britain during the period from about 1900 to 1965." The next paragraph said "Unlike Hornby, their rivals in the toy manufacturing field, Bassett-Lowke were mainly retailers contracting out the manufacture for sale under the Bassett-Lowke trade mark; there was a very considerable mail order side to the business and the catalogues are now much sought after collectors items." Sounds to me that they also think of themselves as a toy manufacturer, with Hornby as a rival??

Marklin's first train was a windup toy in 1891, in 1859 the company was started making tin items for doll's kitchens, ouch.

Now both of the above pretty much say they themselves were toy makers, do they not? I could not find an official Bing website in my searchs. But I did find lots of sites that said they made toys... Any pictures I found looked to me to be toys to pretty much anyones standards. Although probably expensive collectables now.

Another intersting link is:

I found this while searching for the above. Again, read it and form your own opinion, but my read is that it started as promotional items that became playthings. etc. etc. etc.

Again Tinplate (maybe geared towards rich kids, but kids none the less), windup in some cases seems like the begining of it all.

But also back to the main point, if you started with toy trains as a child what was the magic age/price where they were no longer toys?

BTW, Jerry there is no need for personal insults, regardless of what side of the debate you are on. The way I see it, you are what you call others on the net....

jl

Is Michael Jackson even human any more?

"Mark Newton" <

Any more? Was he ever?

-- Cheers Roger T.

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