Is this getting over the top?

All,

Before I start, I would like to point out that I do not wish to cause anyone any offence, all my own opinion only. Having sat back from the news group for a while, It seams that things have got a little bitter recently.

There has been a large amount of talk about image theft etc, bought on by the sad affair recently involving the manuals and ebay. Obviously I don?t condone this, and the guy responsible was clearly taking the mick out of Paul and Hazel who have put in a lot of work. BUT, since then, this issue has resurfaced several times over, looking at websites, steeling images and watermarking etc. My problem is, is this really such a big deal?

This is a small hobby, with very few people involved. Nobody is going to make much money, or get world wide recognition out of pinching text/images etc. I know it is someones personal work, but surely life is too short to keep worrying about it?

As someone who has 3 websites, if someone took text or photos from them (as has happened) it really does not worry me. Why should it? I put my site on the net for people to look at, enjoy and use. I did not put it on the net to get personal recognition.

Granted, it would be nice if the person sent an email first to request permission to use it, but it really does not matter that much. I know in my own mind that I did it and that someone else found it useful.

Take Roland's Petter info on his site. Great stuff, useful and well put together. As one of the most accurate and well researched sources of Petter info, it is bound to get quoted elsewhere in time. I am sure Roland wanted to share his info, rather than take any credit for his work and I think that is what makes the hobby good.

I don?t think that loads of posts on the newgroup about protecting 'our' information does much for our image. Likewise some of the criticism of dealers/ebay.

Hope nobody is offended, its just what I think.

Regards

Chris Bedo Kent UK.

No offence taken and broadly I would agree. I care not if people use my information and the 0.01% who bother to say thanks make it worthwhile. The pictures about which I do care are small and low quality. For those displaying material owned by third-parties the position can be more difficult as the wishes of the owner must be respected or the material not used. There are dealers with whom I'm happy to do business and there are "dealers"!! I feel that criticism of Ebay sellers who blatantly mis-describe or ludicrously overprice is entirely merited but they like the "dealers" will no doubt get their just desserts in time. Incidentally my Petter material was intended for submission to SEM but the then stricture on digital pics prevented that and now its been published SEM's rules prevent it ever appearing in the mag. have a good year Roland

At the time is was seemingly important to a lot of people. Maybe we are all too transient in our viewpoints or just too forgiving these days...

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Engine pages for preservation info:

Without starting the whole thing up again I would like to clarify one point.

The reason we were upset about what happened with the manuals is that people were being persuaded to part with money for something that should have been free. EVERYTHING that goes on Internal Fire or Semidiesel is available for copying, distribution, whatever. It is a resource to help people and we spend a lot of time doing that. If we wanted money from it, it would not be published on the sites.

Things seem to have swung toward theft etc which tends to imply that people are more concerned with potential financial loss to themselves in which case don't put anything interesting on your website!

It is very noticeable that a lot of people within the UK hobby place financial concerns above all else, we deal with people from all over the world on a daily basis and never get this sort of attitude from any other country.

If this seems somewhat bad tempered, I've just had yet another fairly unpleasant email from a contributor to this newsgroup on this subject.

Other things happening at the moment which will be made public shortly just show what the "hobby" is really like here.

I'm sure several will also be happy to hear that this will be my last post on this newsgroup, had enough.

Paul (expecting the usual off group unpleasantness!).

-- ____________________________________

Internal Fire, Museum of Power, Wales

(under construction)

Well I'm not going to hide behind off group comments. I am genuinely perplexed and disturbed by your post, I have never found this NG anything but friendly (barring rare outbreaks of sniping, which are usually the result of misunderstandings). I find it hard to believe that anyone involved would do anything other than applaud and support your considerable efforts in setting up the museum and invaluable resource of Internal fire. However, something untoward is clearly going on behind the scenes and it may be time to bite the bullet and name names, I'm sure the individual/s concerned would be speedily kill filed by the rest of the group.

As far as the hobby as a whole is concerned, perhaps I just dabble round the edges not being into the kind of big/rare/expensive engines which might inspire jealousy in others, but my only criticism would be that particularly as reflected by SEM, it perhaps concentrates a little too much on the artefacts themselves and not enough on their historical and technical context. This is where IF scores, the archive material etc elevates it from a mere collection of exhibits to a real museum.

Obviously a foul day in Wales too :-( Apart from the odd, mostly silent, individual I find this group to be very friendly despite my tendency to "robustness" as I think John Ambler called it...:-) It saddens me greatly that one of us feel it necessary to send unpleasant private mails. If there is an issue can we not discuss it on-group like adults? I suspect, from the timing, that the issue relates to the manuals and possibly to the belief that making copies available devalues the original. My own view is that low resolution copies are useful as a working copy but do not decrease the desire to own an original. In fact by raising awareness of what is around the copies might well raise the market value of selected originals. I say selected because it seems unlikely that manuals for say post-war Petter diesels would fetch premium prices because there are plenty about and they are not widely collected (yet). Other views?? ttfn

I think the provision of low-res copies provides an invaluable resource - it has helped me, and no doubt countless others to get an engine going, provided technical info to make an informed purchase of a particular engine, and alleviated many a lunchtime of boredom at work...long may it continue.

Regards

Dan

Whatever the individual viewpoint, there are no circumstances that would justify an unpleasant email sent to a newsgroup member of-list, especially if it concerned a matter that was made public in the group.

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Engine pages for preservation info:

Paul,

I for one will be very sorry to see you depart the group, and I hope that one (or surely two at most) bad apple(s) will not cause you to leave the orchard.

Like Nick, I've found the group friendly and sensible (perhaps with one exception off-group if I wanted to be very sensitive).

I've found your info both helpful and more importantly for a hobby, interesting.

You won't get any unpleasantness from me.

Regards, Arthur G

people were being persuaded to part with money for

Fire or Semidiesel is available for copying,

of time doing that. If we wanted money from

people are more concerned with potential financial

financial concerns above all else, we deal with

attitude from any other country.

unpleasant email from a contributor to this

just show what the "hobby" is really like here.

on this newsgroup, had enough.

Joining the chorus late, I add my voice in saying that I value the Internal Fire site and Paul's contributions to this NG very highly. There have been several occasions over the last couple of years when I have benefited from both.

I should be sad to think that the dripping of water has finally worn away another worthy stone. Don't go, Paul, we need you !

Regards,

Kim Siddorn

Gentlemen,

What I would like to see is the person(s) who have upset Paul to raise their hands, should they have the guts, and apologise to Paul on this NG.

Martin P

were being persuaded to part with money for

Semidiesel is available for copying,

time doing that. If we wanted money from

from the manuals available for

prescence here also keesp the museum in peoples

show what the "hobby" is really like here.

this newsgroup, had enough.

On the contrary, I am most upset to hear this. In any hobby there are, sadly, a few rotten apples in the barrel. Treat them with robust distain and the contempt which they deserve. I am sure all the group regulars welcome your posts.

Regards

Philip T-E

I have to admit being a bit puzzled as to who it could be, as most of us 'regulars' have pretty much backed Paul in most of his efforts, especially Roly and like folk.

We were able to make a small donation of some new large CAV nozzles to the museum, not a lot but it all helps as Paul says, and my last email to Paul was in response to his and Paul Pavlinovich's emails regarding the Digital Watermarking issue, both of which came to me off-list, but the content is below:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hi PaulE & PaulP:

I thought it would be easier to respond to you both together as you both replied with similar points regarding the digital watermarking process.

I fully agree that in many respects it is a process that has little chance of

100% success without a lot of additional work and costs.

I also agree that a determined 'thief' could probably get around most of it without too much trouble if they were competer-literate and had appropriate resources to hand.

But, I feel that anything in the way of preventative steps would help the situation, especially as most of the 'theft' is from folks already in the engine hobby, not outside 'professionals' for want of a better word.

Casual theft is more of a problem here, and I think that making it known that you are aware of the problem and you are doing something positive about it is better than sitting on your hands and doing nought.

It may be p*ssing in the wind, but I feel better for having made the effort...

Happy New Year to you both.

Peter

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So that's all we have to admit to in recent emails.

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Engine pages for preservation info:

were being persuaded to part with money for

or Semidiesel is available for copying,

of time doing that. If we wanted money from

Okay, although I started the post I have been assured that it is not me who upset Paul ! (I don?t email off list anyway), so I will dare to go on a little more and post again. My reason for the first post was because I feel the situation is getting out of hand with regard to this 'image theft' business.

In my mind, (and I could be way off the mark) the reason this is so much of a problem has very little to do with preventing others making money. I want to put aside what happened with Paul's Manuals as I think this is a separate issue. I am talking about the attitude to protecting documents and information from distribution/copying etc for the good of the movement.

Regards

Chris Bedo Kent UK

just show what the "hobby" is really like here.

on this newsgroup, had enough.

Paul, As others have said, I too will miss your comments and postings. My Mother used to tell me not to make a decision when I was upset or annoyed. Perhaps you have fallen into that arena. I would urge you to give it a few days and then look again at your decision. I for one would welcome your return. I would also like to add my public thanks for your web site. I have downloaded a copy of the Petter A series manual to help me with my example. There, that's done it. Out of the closet. I actually own a non-lawnmower derived engine. I am only a little surprised to find that a contributor to the group could give you so much unpleasantness. I lurk and contribute to other NG's and have found some individuals who have annoyed me also. Not wanting to loose the enjoyment that I get from the majority of the contributors, I simply don't open any posts or emails from those people. There is probably an electronic kill available to stop their submissions appearing on my PC, but I'm not that clever so I do it manually.

I shall send a copy of this via email to Paul in case he has become a total hermit from us all. I hope that isn't the case.

John

OK, Chris, but bear in mind that nobody here, including myself have ever advocated stopping distribution or hiding stuff away from people, indeed a lot of what we have put up in our own site, Ray Hooley's site and Michael Key's site is stuff that would never have seen the light of day otherwise.

What it was about was simply trying to protect documents being misused. I spent a lot of the Xmas break and afterwards scanning CAV information which is now on the site, plus a day on scanning and cleaning up a Madison-Kipp handbook which will be available soon, so please don't think that anyone over here is trying in some way to restrict the availability, it ain't so! :-))

Peter Kind regards,

Peter

Peter Forbes Prepair Ltd Luton, UK email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk home: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk