Question on controllers and motors

Have this gem of a loco, tis a Gem whitemetal kit built Webb 2-4-0 tender engine that I've refurbished. Has an old 3-pole x03/4 type motor and old
gear. Runs reasonably well and has a free runnig chassis. Wasnt running very fast on small guagemaster controller but thought it should. Tried it on old basic hornby one and it ran like a rabbit. Used same controllers and settings for a very smooth Hornby M7 tank. Runs nicely on the guagemaster but only slightly faster on the Hornby controller. Now is it something about the clever electrics on the guagemaster thats slowing the kit loco down, the characteristics of the older motor or ..... Is there anything can do to get it to run faster with the guagemaster (excluding turning speed dial :-)) ? Dont really want to put new motor/gearbox in kit cos refuse to spend lots more money.
Simple answers especially wellcome.
CHeers, Simon
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On 16/06/2011 21:53, simon wrote:

The first thing to consider is that the whitemetal kit is going to be far heavier than the M7. You don't get something for nothing more weight requires more power from the motor, hence more oomph from the controller. You don't say which specific controllers you were using but it is possible that the old Hornby is capable of providing more current at any particular setting, or that the Guagemaster has feedback type control that is limiting output.
AS long as the Webb is free running there is not much you can do other than possibly re-magnetizing the magnet in the motor or replace the motor. The easiest solution of course is just to turn the controller up a bit ( I am not sure why you don't want to do this), unless the problem is it won't pull any sort of load even at full setting.
Regards Jeff
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The simple answer is that the Hornby controller wacks out a half wave rectified supply (if you have a voltmeter look at the voltage for both DC & AC settings. The motors quite happily use the ac component in addition to the base DC supply.
The more sophisticated controllers produce a smoothed and regulated output which is designed for realistic speeds using modern motors.
When I was using the H&M 2000 series units I found it useful to wire it to a simple 2 pole 2way & off switch and put a decent size electrolytic capacitor across the controller o/p. The switch then provided the direction control and the capacitor provided plenty of power by charging to the peak ripple voltage.
Using DCC I am often frustrated by the poor performance of some motors whilst others of the same type run rather too well!
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On 17/06/2011 7:19 AM, Sailor wrote:

???
Manufacturing tolerances guarantee that mechs of the same model won't be identical. IMO, that's enough to explain most of the performance differences. If you happen to use the same motor in different engines, you should expect different performance.
In any case, you can match different locos by adjusting speed step curves.
Wolf K.
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When I have nothing much else on my mind I sit down and play with the parametres and make endless comparison lists but nothing either solves the sloth or frisson problem any more than I have successfully solved the problem of starting or stopping leapfrogs! The sole solution which works for me is greater care with the heavy fist and to dump the worst cases.
Peter
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On 19/06/2011 11:02, Sailor wrote:

make endless comparison lists but nothing either solves the sloth or frisson problem
any more than I have successfully solved the problem of starting or stopping leapfrogs!
The sole solution which works for me is greater care with the heavy fist
and to dump the worst cases.

Not related to Eric Cantona by any chance??
Jeff
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The question I would have asked had I thought of it :-)
Don't dump em, just place to one side into the 'one day' pile. Have seen one almost escape it.
Cheers, Simon
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The simple answer is that the Hornby controller wacks out a half wave rectified supply (if you have a voltmeter look at the voltage for both DC & AC settings. The motors quite happily use the ac component in addition to the base DC supply.
The more sophisticated controllers produce a smoothed and regulated output which is designed for realistic speeds using modern motors.
When I was using the H&M 2000 series units I found it useful to wire it to a simple 2 pole 2way & off switch and put a decent size electrolytic capacitor across the controller o/p. The switch then provided the direction control and the capacitor provided plenty of power by charging to the peak ripple voltage.
Using DCC I am often frustrated by the poor performance of some motors whilst others of the same type run rather too well!
=====================================================Thanks, that explains it simply enough. Presume the gear was chosen to allow for expected higher speed. Can now happily turn up volume on guagemaster to get some oomph with possibility of having an old basic controller permanently available for this type of motor. Hoping to get a few more of these old kits at good price and restore them without new motor gearboxes. Don't really need slow speed control with a Webb 2-4-0 recon they would just open her up and zoom away without much finesse. As for stopping, the LNWR relied more on what was behind the tender than loco brakes - has anyone tried a working brake van - Greg ?
Thanks again, Simon
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Does it need to run fast? ;-)
... and where are you getting all these old Gem kits from? I have a few of their old, old catalogues that I flick though every now and then when I feel the need to salivate ... and yes I know modern kits are far more accurate.
As an aside I wonder what happened to all their old tooling.
--

All the best,

Chris

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No it doesnt, but I need to know that its runnig properly. It still isnt despite checking everything. Currently looking at gear, suspect catching on frame.
Presume current GEM owners have it all. Current locos almost certainly use old tooling for the bodies but whitemetal chassis replaced with recently designed etched NS ones. Think theyre just working through replacing and re-introducing as and when. Very nice people had good chat with them couple of years ago at Nottingham.
Feel the same, theres something about LNWR locos, they look really good in whitemetal and dont need lots of fancy trimmings. Could I trust you to keep the source a secret ? Some from ebay, lots appear, most go for more than I want to pay, but every so often.... Others from stalls at exhibitions, sometimes theyre not obviously displayed. Bet you would have liked the Cotswold L&Y 3p 2-4-2 tank, everything but the motor for GBP30. Magnificant solid brass chassis. Fellow said he'd had it for a couple of years and no one had shown any interest till me. The Garrat, well that was a good price and .... cant ... talk .... any .... more
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