Sundeala

In message , Graham Harrison writes

Plywood

So, despite the naysayers, you have proven top yourself that it *can* be used for baseboards, as can many other materials. If it works for you, use it again.

MBQ

True.

That raises the questions (1) Why don't people believe Sundeala is an appropriate material? (2) Is it to do with the fact that you can pretty well push fixing pins in and that isn't the way to do it "properly"? (3) Like I said my board is a simple 6x4 at the moment - that was three Sundeala boards - to create a "round the walls" layout I would need to cut the Sundeala - is that an issue - are there any health and safety provisions?

"Graham Harrison" wrote in message news:EJadndggErtF snipped-for-privacy@bt.com...

I think it's mainly because it needs a fair amount of bracing as being so soft it tends to sag easily, which can negate the idea of a lightweight board (if using normal timber for the frame).

Plywood has been mentioned, and I do use it myself, but it's a bu**er to cut cleanly, and if I understand correctly, most of the usual mainstream timber suppliers are now restricted by health & safety legislation to fairly wide cuts (6 inches or so, or greater), whereas ply frames don't need to be anything like so deep. I find 3 inches to be about right, but when cutting it to that size my fingers always seem so perilously close to the circular saw blade!

Ian J.

"Graham Harrison" wrote

a) it's expensive b) it needs an awful lot of support and even then will still warp c) plywood or chipboard are cheaper and more stable in an internal situation.

I've used Sundeala for years, and have just started work on a new small layout using the same material - but only because I was able to salvage boards from my previous layout. I've got to the stage where I just don't like the stuff.

John.

"Ian J." wrote

It comes with a build in sag - I know, we sell it in our shop.

John.

As others said, plywood. But not the rubbish sold in most DIY sheds, which appears to be 50% filler and 50% soft sponge. Decent birch ply is light, very strong, and used correctly very resistant to warping. It has alternating thin layers of dark and light ply all the way through (not a skin of birch, then DIY shed filler rubbish on the inside). It takes some tracking down in timber suppliers in the UK. ( I'll admit to insider advantage in being friends with the owner of a company which uses tons of good ply, and has computer controlled cutting machines, so you email him a baseboard sketch, and a kit of pre-cut parts comes back).

Alternatives that work for some: Foamboard (as used to make shop window displays, so often available free when the display is changed, or sold in expensive art shops). Its incredibly light, and can be perfectly strong. I know two exhibition layouts in 2mm finescale using the stuff. You can pick up the entire layout with one hand. Cuts with a sharp knife. Glues with PVA, HotGlue or tape. And, like ply it can be warp free if used appropriately.

"John Turner" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.supernews.com:

Thinking about noise for a moment, I've never used the stuff but I understand that it has very good noise reduction properties, assuming a person with a little more money than sense how about Sundeala laid on *top of* another more ridged material such as chipboard/mdf?

"Chris Wilson" wrote

Is noise a real issue with model railways? I've used chipboard in the past and never really found that to be very noisy.

I actually considered Sundeala atop chipboard (or similar) but thought that the total thickness of the board would cause problems with under-board mounting of point motors, so I discounted that option.

John.

"John Turner" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.supernews.com:

I've surfaced mounted half of those you sold me last year :-)

Plywood way too thick and heavy. 6mm is more than enough. 4mm if used with some care and skill in setting out. But, 50mm deep for framing is probably insufficient, 100mm might be better (can have holes cut in it to reduce weight, or partially cut through with a router to similar effect).

See Barry Norman's publications amongst others. One is not trying to build an ocean going yacht, but a model railway baseboard !

Better idea on the weight of materials.

Replace the top surface with either blue-foam (used in insulation, the one which isn't toxic when set alight!) or foamboard, and you'll get a better result.

- Nigel

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:46:44 +0100, "Graham Harrison" said in :

I used Sundeala, it worked fine, but it has its limitations. I found

6mm ply better for gradients and such, but had a 14' square layout on Sundeala that was just fine. It seemed to be stable whatever the temperature, but of course you can't let it get damp.

Guy

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:40:53 +0100, "Ian J." said in :

So use a hardpoint saw. I can cut an 8' sheet of ply by hand in about half the time it takes to set the circular saw up, I only ever use the circular saw when making large numbers of identical cuts.

Guy

If you can have a fixed installation then use 16mm floor panels. They are usually available in a range of sizes and are tongue and grooved. I have found them all to be of consistant quality with a smooth transition, easily supported on 45 x 23 roofing batten frames and able to easily cut, added to built on and even stood on!

Regards

In message , "Just zis Guy, you know?" writes

For comments on Sundeala see the letter from Steve Boley in today's MRE:

Ignorance of the material's properties and not using it appropriately (ie support).

Who cares what some self appointed expert considers "proper"?

Another idea is the green fibre laminate floor underlay over a ply or mdf base. The track pins go through the underlay easily and then just far enough into the base that (a) they go in easily without bending and (b) they stay in. The underlay can be sculpted to an extent.

MBQ

But what is sundeala? Is it some form of reconstituted fibre board? another name for mdf?

It's fairly soft insulation board, made I believe from recycled newspaper. Cyril Freezer who was editor and writer for the Railway Modeller for a looooong time used it for baseboard tops. Because it was so soft, it required more cross bracing than others so even a 2x4 module was very heavy. Especially when he liked plaster bandage for scenery.

I has been suggested that he used it because it would take spiked track made from Peco components before flex track was available. The fact that they published the magazine and were his employer might not be a coincidence.