about newbie welders....

ha! absolutely not. ive worked production lines in the past where i have literally taught new employees how to weld. 15 minutes later theyre on the job.

snipped-for-privacy@reliant.com (jswatek) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

These type of production welders never weld on anything critical. They are the ones that weld your woodstove together, or your store bought barbque, or your wives ironing board, *fitness equipment*, different types of racks, brackets, small wheels for riding lawn mowers, mower decks, cheap furniture, but never trailers or anything critical. They're are many levels of skill in production welding. The good ones move on to other types of work in the welding trades, that require more skill, and do not stay working in these types of jobs.

i am absolutely dumbfounded. no wonder i see so many cracked welds come through here. how much could it cost to put someone through, damn, even a 3 day intesive course? it'd have to be heavily job-specific, but its better than 15 minutes.

what are these people 'welding' anyway?? nothing terribly important i'd hope.

the quality of my welding has been brought to my attention twice in my professional career -- one of the two doesn't count (the way i see it) .. both happened in the shop, with other customers around to hear (made it all that much worse)

first, a tongue mod on a trailer. double ("V") tongue replaced with single tongue to facilitate tight turning. the fella came back 10 days later scream'n about my 'shit welds' and his trailer falling apart on the road, full of livestock. turns out the tongue (16cm Ibeam) and the cross member it was attached to twisted like a pretzel. but the welds didn't budge. apparently he didn't understand that loading 4 oxen on a trailer designed for 20 sheep was a bad move.

second, steering box on a 50hp deisel farm tractor tore my welds clean off the frame. 7018 on dirty metal. had never seen anything like it. i know that stuff doesn't like dirty metal, but christ, there probably wasn't 1" of penetration on the base in the whole 10" weld. -- 8pm at night, fella got me up in the middle of dinner. rush job, and i wasn't careful. no real damage done.. just had to do more work later than it would have taken to do the job right the first time. i've since learned my lesson and now screaming people who are (always) in a rush either get a) pushed to the back of the line or b) are WAY overcharged.

maybe the second part here is OT, my apologies.

-tony

one job was building livestock containment equipment. nothing like having a piss off boar hog in a 2'x4' cage that was welded on an assembly line by a newbie welding getting paid by piece work. another was building tow dollies, one was building hand carts. i worked on a production line building 5th wheel components but at least you had to pass a bend test there (two pieces of half inch plate v groove butt welded single pass MIG flat position).

"SteveB" wrote in news:lgLwb.23387$kl6.13704@fed1read03:

I was responding to this thread specifically, none other. In reference to his interaction with John. In regards to someone comparing a production weldor, as a PRO, and finding fault in this type of weldors, welding ability in light of what John posted was kind of mute IMO.

It is a welding job on the lowest scale of the welding trade. Most people that have been in the welding trade know this, but many non PRO-weldors do not know this, especially if they brought it up in the context of what John said.

And yes, a trained monkey can do this type of welding, that was the point. So bringing them up in referrance to PRO weldors in general, was a bit off IMO.

Kruppt

Tony,

Bridges aren't welded with MIG. Bridge welders are certified to AWS D1.5 bridge welding code. They often are also certified to state or local amendments to the AWS code. All of the welds on the bridge are typicaly inspected by UT (ultrasonic testing). All of the weld joints on our bridge have been pre qualified, along with the process used. And that is part of the reason that our bridges rarely fail, and that they cost so much to build.

Have a good Turkey Day! JTMcC.

The difference is that pros doing code work, construction, etc. weld per qualified procedure. In other words, they are told what rods to use, what amperage, what joint type, etc. They are also certified through testing for this. Or this may be qualifed, not sure of the correct term.

This is troublesome to me if you base your weld quality on looks,feel, and intuiton. We're not making chocolate chip cookies here are we? There is SOUND metallurgical and welding knowledge which should be intelligently and logically applied to ensure product quality. If you are doing production work where you manufacture the same widget over and over again, they follow welding procedures, which have the part tested and probably re-tested on a periodic basis to ensure the quality level.

Again, see above.

if you dont have one of these

you dont even get to interview at any _real_ jobsite, and even still that just gets you an interview. most often you still have to pass an onsite test. i got out of welding for awhile and had to recertify this year just to get back into the game.

My goodness thats a lot of "maybe's" I hope you are not making welds that affect life and limb. In my little world there are NO maybe's, you make the weld, they do a visual inspection, they x-ray it, they hydro it, and it's either good or not, no in between, no maybe.

Man that's a scary thought, again I hope nothing you weld has an impact on the wellbeing of the public, if so, you should rethink this part where you say you have "NO clue" you need to be very confident, even if you have no independant inspection, of your ability to make sound welds.

JTMcC.

Granted, your statements are all true and correct (including the 'chocolate chip cookies') ... i was trying to make a progression on the original post(s). the 'newbies' (hopefully) are operating with sound information from either this forum, or at the very least, a good book, if not techincal training directly.

but just picking the right filler, selecting correct amperage, etc, becomes mechanical after a bit. although these are all necessary conditions for a sound weld, they might not get you a satisfactory one.

i wont even tell you how my first welds looked in techschool, with the equipment set up for me, electrodes & coupons waiting -- nice, clean and dry.

i wonder what the professional welders' setup is like at home.. working on the weekends. sure they can dial a machine in alot closer than someone less experienced.. but if the heat isn't set *just* right, i bet they compensate at the work.. welding faster/slower/etc.. instead of walking over to the machine and tweaking it by 4.5 amps/volts. they have a feel for it. they know what a good weld looks & sounds like.

though the discussion went into MIG welding, as it can more easily hide a poor weld, this more or less applies to any welding style.

my 2cents

-tony

okay okay maybe my last post was a little touchyfeely. my point is that welding is a learned art. its not so robotic that you can tell a kid on the internet 1/2 way around the world step by step how to lay down a good weld. for all you know he or she's pointing a stinger at a (grounded) 2x4.

my welding instructor (a legit teacher, not a H.S. buddy) taught me to go for that 'sizzling bacon' sound with the mig. not how many ips to swing the gun or how many pounds of wire i had to melt in an hour. but in all those rules of thumb i learned how to read and control the puddle and, consequently, get sound welds.

theres just alot more to it than reading the print.

-- and your average homebuilt 70mph trailer doesnt get xrayed or ultrasounded. doesnt mean its not as strong.

-tony

Most of the machines I learned to weld on you only got to choose in chunks of 10 or 20 amps (I forget) by plug in taps. They worked fine, though I did not buy one like that when I shopped for my own. My current machine, you might be able to move "4.5 amps", but the calibration on the scale (20-250 by 20) would never let you see that in any repeatable fashion. I seriously doubt that the numbers which are there correspond exactly to the output when the dial is lined up "just so" with them anyway.

Fact is, given that the old tap machines worked, finely fiddling with the amperage is not really needed; when you dial in 21.5 amps, you might actually be getting 15 or 25 amps, and in any case, you either get close enough that you can do the rest by how you weld, or you're far enough out that you find a need to make an adjustment.

If you actually believe that your average homebuilt trailer has equivilent welds to those made by profesional welders that have every bloody thing they build x rayed, UT'ed or pressure tested, then you are working, and living, in a world of your own.

Happy turkey day, JTMcC.

I worked in the offshore oil industry from 1974 to 1980. In all that time, I never SAW a welding certificate. They were useless. And this was for high pressure pipeline welding. The way things went, the company would test from 8-5 for days until they were done. Waving a cert classified you as a newbie without a lot of experience. Certs didn't mean dick. And waving it like a badge of courage certainly didn't get you any points with the old hands. It did the opposite.

A weldor would weld up a piece of pipe in the 6g position, and then it would be tested destructively. Bend. Nick break. Pulled apart until the point of failure. If it passed, the weldor's name was put on the roster for THAT job. Pertinent information was given to the company AFTER the roster was posted, such as SSN, etc. If it didn't past DT, there was no waste of time getting information and inspecting worthless certs. What good was a cert if your coupon wouldn't pull?

Most certs are good for showing off, and for toilet paper. They impress nonweldors. An inspector MAY ask to see a cert, but what he really wants to look at is a weld you have just done, and he doesn't really care about which or how many certs you have. Certs can be bought. On most real world jobs, certs are only good for the duration of THAT job. Same guy has to recertify before the beginning of the next job. Same company, same inspector.

BTW, we had the same 60 or so guys test for every job. Some would make it every time. Some would wash out on some jobs, and pass for others. A cert doesn't guarantee you can weld. Just that you passed the test THAT day. Every inspector who has any integrity wants to watch you weld and test what you do.

Just MHO, based on my oilfield experiences. YMMV.

STeve

O.K., bad choice of words on my part. I'm certainly not advocating getting a pretty coupon as recognition that that is the same as being 'qualified' for the job at hand. If this means fail testing or some other procedure, then so be it. I meant to say that a 'pro' is a 'pro' for that particular job due to his experience, capability, and has been able to adequately demonstrate that to all concerned--whether that be the design, fabrication, or safety community. There, I hope that covers it!!

"Pete C." wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@snet.net:

Hey Pete, nice choice for a weldin' machine. There's no fool, like a fool, that does not know his limitations. In your case you had a sense of this, and a sense that things should be right before putting your trailer on the road. Power to ya'. I'm sure it is a NICE trailer. I don't think the jest of the thread is towards someone of your elk. Be proud of your accomplishment. I'm not gestin' newbie welders in anyway. I was one myself, but did not get in the face of the "elders" in the trade,(John in this case) and start spoutin' my mouth off to them. I cleaned their work area for them, brought them coffee, took their jests and jabs, in the hopes, that they would at some point share some wealth of "knowledge" with me, that I had not. It's the one's that think they "know it all" at once, that are the scary ones. I was a AWS D1.1 certified welder, in all welding processes, written test in LA, missed two, remember about nothing of it now, before I ever took a paying job in weldin'. The truth be said, I used it on but on a few occassions in my "PRO" years, custom homes that hang off cliffs in La Jolla, and Cardiff by the Sea in CA.,... as I tranversed a different coarse that always interested me, ...Machinery. Build and be glad, and "love" your Miller synchrowave 250. LOL! I'm sure you will build a lot of fine things with it. Don't listen to the Lincoln dissers, they have not owned both. LOL!

Kruppt

a _lot_ has changed since then.

i doubt they even existed then as they do today. you cant possibly be comparing 23-29 year old standards to what is expected today.

let me bring you forward in time at least 20 years. read my post again, the certification gets you in the door. without it you wont get an interview. as i said in my post that you replied to, you still have to pass an onsite test most of the time, but the certification is required to get you in the door. i bid on contracts on ft. bragg. if you arent a certified welder from an aws approved course, you are not allowed to weld anyhwere on bragg. period. i dont care how good you think you are, no paper, no welding.

this shows me you havent welded in the industry in some time.

this confirms it. on ft. bragg and most anywhere else now, no paper no weld. period.

i encourage you to update yourself a little bit. todays jobsites require the welder be certified in an aws approved course. you can minimize it all you wish, im damn proud of my certification. im not a better welder now that i have a piece of paper.....it just enables me to get in the door.

If this was some unthreaded eye bolts used for tie down points, then the problem was the design. Lifting eyes are only good for tension in line with the bolt. If there is any side load, then you need swivel safety lifting eyes at about forty times the price. I am not saying that this was the case, but it doesn't hurt to make sure that everyone knows that eye bolts are not to have any side load. Dan

No fooling. But a lot has stayed the same.

Please reread my statement. Just stating a fact. You probably weren't even around then, even as an afterthought. And a lot of the standards of the oilfield industry are the same now as they were then. FWIW. Were you there?

Again, please rereread my statement. I was just commenting on the workmen of that age.

I retired, but still weld. Please rereread the part that says "Most". Some people even show theirs off on the Internet.

On federal property, they make up their own rules. Everywhere is different. When I did work on Hoover Dam, I was not required to provide or produce certificates, contractor's license, business license, or liability insurance. On the Nevada Test Site, past certifications are inadmissable as proof of weldor qualification. Guess your argument doesn't hold water. Maybe they do things different on a rural training base where the welding only involves fencing, general repairs, or ornamental metal.

Again, please rereread my posts, and notice the tense. As in PAST tense. Most statements I made had to do with the way things were in the past. And, to say it again, I never had an experience where a certification opened a door. It was a sure way to announce to the inspector and the rest of the crew that you were green as saltcedar.

I am not sure to which jobsites you refer to. In the Ironworkers Local in Las Vegas, Nevada, they still go by the old way. You weld for the man. You pass, you work. You don't pass, you don't work. You work and you fail NDT, you get laid off or sent to another position. Paper don't mean jack.

I don't need any updating. I am mostly retired now. I travel, sleep late, and weld on projects for myself, friends, and for the occasional $$$ jobs that are just too good to pass up.

Your generalizations and all-inclusive statements make me question your credibility. And ability.

STeve