FINGER follow up.

You are complaining about getting hurt on a machine you set up yourself??? If the school didn't want to spend the bucks to restore the machine to an acceptable state, it should never have been powered up, in my opinion.
Reply to
Jim
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Well I am going to have to side with Ernie on this accident. The school was penny wise and pound foolish on this one. I am not sure just how Ernie got hurt but I can only assume that he was holding the part to be bent and got his fingers in the way of the die. There should have been two palm buttons for cycling the press. Especially if the machine was to be used by students. With two palm buttons spaced apart there is no way that you can get your fingers caught in a pinch point. All of our hand presses had them. Also tongs should be available. Even skilled people can make mistakes as Ernie now knows first hand (no pun intended) and any equipment used by students should have every safety device available on it. Hope you have a speedy and full recovery Ernie.
Reply to
bitternut
"Gary Coffman" wrote
Sorry Ernie, I hate that you were hurt, but it looks like
Am I dense, or didn't Ernie state that VERY early on?
Steve
Reply to
SteveB
I wish I had a dollar for every time I was told to use an unsafe piece of machinery. Even in this perfect world, nothing works right all the time. Many an employer has provided unsafe tools, and then said "use them or go home", sometimes not in so many words. Or they leave you there with a goal to achieve, and your own mind tells you to make due with what you have to work with. Or that welder ego kicks in, and "I'll show them", or "Heyyyyy everybody, watch this" pops up. Everyone in this situation woulda, shoulda, coulda, but the bottom line is that it all started with the school, and the buck stops there.
Steve
Reply to
SteveB
Or both?
Steve ;-)
Reply to
SteveB
Its the Captain of the Ship, or the pilot of an aircraft, ultimate responsibility to be sure the ship or the airplane is in safe operating condition before slipping the moorings or taxiing to the runway.
If either are unsafe, its no one elses fault if the ship sinks, or the plane crashes as a result of Mr. Murphy taking advantage of the unsafe condition.
While it is human nature to push the envelope, we all do it daily..from driving through a yellow light (I think Ill make it) to running a machine tool without a guard, etc etc...we all need to take sole responsibility when it catches up with us, and it will sooner or later. Sometimes (insert deity of your choice) gives you a warning and a shot of adrenalin, other times he removes a body part or kills you, but its ultimately your action that set it up.
Shrug. Been there, done that myself on many occasions
Gunner, who is getting wiser along with older. "At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
To Steve-YES, Ernie did state it was his fault from the beginning. The issue is that he now feels justified in suing the school for extra easy $$ for a relatively minor injury he admittedly brought upon himself. Also see Gunner' s recent post for an illustrative parody on finger injuries! Regards, George Soroka
Reply to
George
He did, but now it has come out that he is the one responsible for obtaining, installing, and operating a machine which has had its safety features disabled or removed. That's a whole other level of fault.
Gary
Reply to
Gary Coffman
Okay, you go back to them and say "I told you 'you can pay now, or pay later', and later is always more expensive..."
And to drive home your point, count to ten on your fingers for them. "...Seven, Eight, Eight and three quarters, Nine and a half - Gee, that's as high as I can go. Now when I ask for a few measly dollars for safety equipment, you think you can find it somewhere?"
Get a set of factory drawings showing how it should be wired and assembled with the palm button safeties, and you should be able to find someone local who will restore it for you.
The only thing I can see stopping someone from working on it - especially after an accident like that - is that they don't want to go off into uncharted territory in the safety-critical parts of the control wiring. So if it 'fails dangerous' because they designed the circuit themselves and got it wrong, they don't get sued over it.
And there are a lot of ways to screw up even simple relay logic through unintended ground loops, ground faults, and power backfeeds.
Hell, if I was asked to engineer a safety critical circuit like that from scratch, I wouldn't go anywhere near it - and I'm not even the one holding the C-10 license. But if you hand me a design, wiring diagram and parts list that has been vetted and cleared by the engineers that made the machine, no problem.
If I wire it up properly exactly to the print and in a workmanlike manner, using the right parts (or proper substitutes if the buttons are discontinued) and someone still manages to get hurt, I should be in the clear. ;-)
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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman
I'm voting for both. :-P
Ernie admitted that it was his screw-up right off the bat - it all happened in an "ohnosecond".
That is the interval where time dilation kicks in - you can see it coming, you know instantly you messed up bigtime and can't do a damned thing about it, the ram will be there before you can get the message from your brain through the nerves and pull your fingers clear.
That's why you want palm safeties, light curtains, screen cages with interlocks, etcetera - whatever it takes to keep human parts out of the way of fast moving equipment. ANYONE can have a brain fart.
You can run that machine 40 hours a week for 30 years flawlessly, but it only takes one second of inattention and they start calling you "Stumpy".
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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman
The
which is his call, and he IS justified ..........
for extra easy $$
easy $$ I think Ernie would trade the "easy $$" to turn back the clock to before the accident.
sorry, but cutting off body parts ain't minor to me ........
Also see
Good parody.
Reply to
SteveB
So, Ernie should pay the school? Even after he asked them to spend a few bucks to fix the thing? Interesting angle ............. lemmee think about it ............................
Steve
Reply to
SteveB
It's in a basic job shop environment, not a high run production line.
From the manufacturer:
formatting link
Notice foot activation? leaves hands free to hold & position workplace. Like using a lathe, milling machine or shaper, or any other manual powered tool, requires training & skill required to operate safely. In high run production, the operator is only loading the material..
Tom
Reply to
Tom
It's in a basic job shop environment, not a high run production line.
From the manufacturer:
formatting link
Notice foot activation? leaves hands free to hold & position the workplace. Like using a lathe, milling machine or shaper, or any other manual powered tool, requires training & skill required to operate safely. In high run production, the operator is only loading the material and activating the cycle.
Tom
Reply to
Tom
That would be fine if Ernie's school floated or flew, but, being a school it no doubt has an administration with a "risk management" department or officer. Using your analogy Ernie is equivalent to a deck hand or perhaps a flight attendant. The school was aware that the press had broken palm safeties because Ernie requested that they be fixed, and the school refused to do so. Ernie has given no indication that the school's risk manager or other official ordered him to not use/test the machine, and since they were aware of the problem then they effectively allowed him to run it with their knowledge.
Once again, that's fine if you don't include any other factors. Speaking from a strictly philosophical standpoint, a ship's captain who runs a red light or a pilot who operates a machine tool without guards while flying his airplane, and gets into an accident as a result is ultimately culpable. But there are things that we don't know in Ernie's particular case, and we shouldn't be too quick to judge.
...And don't people just LOVE to judge.
Reply to
Artemia Salina
Ernie..as chief muckamuck of his department made the decision to use the machine, knowing full well it was in an unsafe condition. Not the head of the school board, not the janitor, not the alumni.
Its no more, nor no less simple than that.
Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
Big Gold Star.
Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
if the school would not fix the thing..it was Ernies responsiblity to NOT TURN IT ON.
While I think the world of Ernie..would you get into an overloaded truck with sun rotted tires and hit the freeway at rush hour?
Shrug...personal responsibility is so uncommon these days as to be scary.
Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
It sounds to me like you didn't have the support (financial) you needed to make the machine safe. Don't feel bad that you didn't fight it all the way to make the machine safe; all the way can mean anything from an uncomfortable work environment to unemployment. You shouldn't have to put up with either to cover up for someone else's failings.
I don't know all the details, I'm not a lawyer and I don't even live in the same country, but it seems to me that the beancounters need to learn that the health and safety of workers has a price worth paying.
In my opinion it's sad that it takes punitive damages from a court of law to ensure organizations do the right thing, but if the only way an organization will be punished for wrongdoing is by you taking them to court then that's what you should do. Not for personal gain, but so that there is a cost the beancounters can easily see for the organization which failed in their duty. IMO, you should see compensation for your injuries as a right which comes with the risks of the job. You shouldn't feel guilty about receiving punitive damages either, that's your pay for making the next beancounter who thinks safety equipment is too expensive think again.
I don't like the system (punitive damages going to the injured party creates a huge incentive for cases with no merit), but if that's the system you should play the part those who created the system intended. If they did wrong then sue their asses. If you don't like the system use any punitive damages to campaign to change the system.
If the system says organizations which fail to provide adequate health and safety provisions for their workers will be punished by their injured workers taking them to court it's your *duty* to sue their asses.
I'm not a lawyer, I don't know the details and I don't know who was at fault, but I think you should speak to a lawyer and if he says you have a case then those who wrote the laws must have wanted you to take it to court. You can guarantee the next time some health and safety legislation comes before government some huge corporations with expensive layers will argue that the legal process ensures adequate protection for employees. Prove them right :)
Tim
Reply to
Tim Auton
Well, I thought about it, and think that Ernie should NOT have to pay the school. And I think he was clear of everything when the school refused to pay to fix the safety features on the machine. And I am sorry that I do not live in the safe and perfect world that you do. Mine is a lot more flawed.
Steve
Reply to
SteveB

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