FINGER follow up.

[snip]
We live in an interdependent world. Human society is built on the concept. Humans are built on the concept. Evidently you are not.
Tim
Reply to
Tim Auton
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major snip, snip...
This is quite obviously the fault of the cup maker. By using ceramic and not completely glazing all surfaces (or coating the bottom of the cup with teflon or wrapping the cup in a non-slip surface) they've knowingly created a dangerous object that invites misuse and subsequent injury. So you should immediately file suit for $1,000,001 ($1 for bandages & Betadine and $1,000,000 for mental anguish).
Reply to
Jim Levie
snip, snip...
Absolutely! As the thread indicates Ernie knew that not all of the safeties for manual operation were installed and operational. So if there's any fault here, and I don't think there is, it would (sadly) be with Ernie knowingly using the press with it being in that condition.
I'm really sorry that this happened to such a great guy, but if I were in the same position I'd feel morally bound to accept that I made a mistake and live with it. Oh yeah, and I'd place a lockout on the press until it was brought up to standard.
Reply to
Jim Levie
Seems to me you just made Gunner's point about personal responsibility. Human society is built on interdependent relationships. And a part of that is a reasonable expection that the guy/gal next to you isn't going to do something completely stupid.
Reply to
Jim Levie
I have to side with Ernie on the basics (and I mentally feel his loss). Admin's are very capable of hoodwinking department heads into taking the $hort road$ until the news media, OSHA and other blame gatherer's show up; THEN they pass the bill off to the treasurer.
OK, Yup, Un-huh. The one that hit the go button on the press should have been aware; but you can't turn back time and the one's who control the pur$e ultimately pay the bill$. And that's the way it is.
Hopefully, the admin learns to budget extra funds to go beyond the basics, too.
Reply to
Tom Zachman
Great!
Hummm...perhaps I can go for a permanent disability too? I use that thumb to dig out the hard crusty dust boogers from my right nostril. Nothing worse than going through life with built up boogers in only one side. Throws off a persons balance and makes it hard to walk. Maybe I can get a handicapped placard for my truck and the best parking spots? Nobody else uses them.
Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
Steve, would you point out in Ernies posts where someone from the school stuck a pistol in his ear and forced him to operate the machine? Or told him his job was on the line and he would be blacklisted if he didnt operate it?
Unfortunately juries all over the US have your point of view. Million dollar awards for people doing stupid stuff. "Do not use this curling iron while in the shower" stickers are a perfect example.
Didnt someone in an earlier post claim it was "really only suing the schools insurance company"?
And people piss and moan about high insurance rates.......
Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
Ernie, I had an accident where the tendon on top of my thumb was totally severed. This means that you can bend your thumb inward and grasp but you cannot open it and extend it. Since both of my thumbs "hyperextend" (they bend back beyond straight, quite common) and since I am a serious piano player that need the hyperextension to increase my reach on the keyboard, this condition was vital to me. (BTW, a worker threw a piece of sheet metal off a building and it came down on my thumb like a guillotine). Went through several surgeries dozens of 'hand therapy visits' and workman's comp. Long story short, I got a $ 75,000 settlement from the defendant's insurance company primarily because of the importance of the thumb and the fact that I was self employed and could show a tremendous income loss over time. Lawyer got 40%. Took almost two years.
The settlement was primarily a multiplier of the medical expenses. At the time (1984) typical multiplier quoted was 3 to 5 for hand injuries. If you do try to recover some damages there are two things for which to watch out. I avoided both problems thanks to my good lawyer. By law, your medical insurer (I had Kaiser at the time) is first in line to get reimbursed from whatever settlement you receive. I know this sucks and doesn't seem fair in light of the fact that you and your employer have been paying health insurance for decades. But this is the law. Likewise, workman's comp is also there with their hand out putting a claim on your settlement. I avoided both problems because my attorney settled with Kaiser first (asking the defendant's insurance company to reimburse Kaiser immediately after the incident. Most insurance companies will do this). He also negotiated with workman's comp at the very beginning and got them to waive their rights to reimbursement. After these two issues, we filed a law suit and settled. Needless to say without the above two 'co-defendants' removed, I would have had nothing. $ 75,000 less $ 30,000 off the top for attorney would have left me with $ 40,000, barely enough to cover medical and workman's comp.
Be careful how you proceed.
Ivan Vegvary
Reply to
Ivan Vegvary
"Gunner" wrote>
And people piss and moan about high insurance rates.......
And this is turning into a pissing contest. Hasta la vista, baby.
Steve
Reply to
SteveB
No Steve, this is a debate between people who think that personal responsibility is first and foremost, and people who think you shouldst be held responsible for your actions and that others should be forced to pay for your mistakes in judgement.
No pissing contest here. Just ethics.
Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
While I tried to write it humorously..its healing nicely. Just got out of the shower and the wound is nice and pink and pretty well closed up. Id have hated to have cut that nail completely off..as I indicated..its moy importanto for booger digging.
Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Reply to
Gunner
You are? Why?
Reply to
Artemia Salina
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man... a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity.... This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area we call The Twilight Zone."
"Stay tuned for the Jerry Springer special: Decorum and Good Taste, followed by a full hour of our senior consumer reporter Wile E. Coyote's tips on how to avoid being ripped off by Acme Inc".
Wayne
Reply to
wmbjk
Evidnently that was what happened, based on the fact you dont think that he was 100% responsible for the accident.
Gunner
Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Reply to
Gunner
Is that what I think? Thanks for straightening me out. I had said that we don't know all of what happened and so we shouldn't be too quick to judge.
Not only are you judging based on Ernie's incomplete comments on what happened, but you're also trying to get him to answer a loaded question with just a yes or no answer.
You've likened Ernie to a department head, a muckity muck, a ship's captain, and a pilot, and none of those descriptions have turned out to be accurate, according to Ernie. If it was me I'd have realized by now that I don't have all of the facts, and perhaps should reserve my judgment, but it isn't me, it's you. Apparently you're content to fill in the blanks with assumptions that make the case for your view on frivolous law suits.
Reply to
Artemia Salina
How do you know, Gunner? Where you there when all of this happened? I notice that you ignored the second part of my post where I said that we should not be so quick to judge because we don't have all of the facts.
Reply to
Artemia Salina
Now you're thunking... Maybe you could find three or four folks that have had the same experience and turn it into a class action suit?
I can see the end result now. In 5-7 years the manufacture or sale of ceramic, glass, and brittle plastic cups, glasses, and plates, etc., has been banned. Only styrofoarm or paper are allowed. And a year after that to combat the raging black market and smuggling of those banned items the Justice department creates a new division to take charge of the "War on Cups".
The news is full of reports of raids to seize illegal kilns and shut down those "cup labs". And the jails are filled to overflow with people caught harboring "dangerous dishes", which leads to massive demontrations and civil unrest. According to a spokesperson for PATLOC (People Against the Law on Cups), "This law has turned the nation into a land of law breakers. If we don't get the law repealed there soon won't be any free people left to work. Remember, when cups are outlawed only outlaws will have cups."
And to think, it will all be because Gunner just wanted a sharp knife...
Reply to
Jim Levie
I didn't suggest that.
*Especially* after that. That shows he *knew* it was unsafe, and *used it anyway*. He should have locked it out until such time as it could be brought into safety compliance.
Gunner raised a key point here that Ernie hasn't answered. Did the school *require* Ernie to use the machine or not?
If they required him to use it with full knowledge of its safety deficiencies, then they're culpable.
If they didn't require him to use it as a condition of his continued employment, well Ernie obtained the machine, Ernie modified the machine, and Ernie chose to use the machine knowing full well it lacked OSHA compliant safety features.
And apparently this accident occurred outside of class time, given that Ernie said he hopes to be healed enough to teach when classes start. So another question is raised, was this usage of the machine for school purposes, or was it for a personal project?
If there's a lawsuit, Ernie is going to have a hard time shifting responsibility for this accident onto someone else. Basically, he'd have to show that the school knew he was incompetent to obtain, modify, and operate the machine, but required him to do so anyway.
If he hadn't asked for money to bring the machine into safety compliance, he'd have a stronger case for incompetence. But the fact that he did ask for funds to bring the machine into compliance shows he was aware of the issues, and chose to ignore them when it came down to using the machine. We all know the consequences of that decision.
Now all legal and ethical questions aside, I'm sympathetic to Ernie's plight. He's in a manual trade, and he's injured a hand. That potentially seriously reduces his ability to make a living, now, and perhaps for the rest of his life.
He's got to look out for number one in this situation, and that may involve contemplating hiring a shyster to get him a big chunk of money from some deep pocket. Pragmatically, that's how things are often done, ethical or not.
Gary
Reply to
Gary Coffman
[snip]
Why would he have to show he was incompetent? That's the most ridiculous suggestion I've heard for a long time. The law says employers must provide a safe working environment, doesn't it? Ernie's employers were made aware of an area of safety concern and failed to act. Does that absolve Ernie of all responsibility for the accident? No. Does it place some responsibility on his employer? Yes.
Tim
Reply to
Tim Auton
Ernie, If it's any consolation, you being a teacher, your experience prompted me to reinstall the guard on my tablesaw.
Best of luck whatever you do.
Jim
Reply to
Jim

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