Horizontal bead weld?

Okay, I got ahold of the Navy welding manual, and they suggest a similar technique (20 degree travel angle, 15 degree work angle). So I'm good there.
To cut down on the sag, they suggest a slight weave. However, here is the one part that has me puzzled:
"As you move in and out of the crater, pause slightly each time you return. This keeps the crater small and the bead has less tendency to sag."
I have always read that when weaving, one is to pause momentarily at the top and bottom. Are they (the Navy book) suggesting that I pause instead in the middle of the weave, when I am in the puddle? Do they mean the puddle when they speak of the crater?
Help!
Jon

Pause at the top, but not at the bottom of each weave. like a series of U's (UUUUUUUU) The weave should be narrow and slow.
Put 2 rods side by side. The widest you should weave is from the center of one to the center of the other.
Your angles sound fine at 20 and 15 deg. Arc length at 1/8". Amps at 105 to 115.

Yep! Much better description than I could give- this is the same technique I use. Most common problem I've seen people struggle with is keeping that short arc length. As the rod burns back, they forget to move with it. It's a combination of motions- one to manage that arc length, one to travel down the joint, one to work the weave, all while maintaining those travel and work angles.
As you start out, your logical mind will know the motions you need to make from reading the descriptions, but your muscles won't move right until they've been trained how. Practice, practice, practice! Every rod you burn will sprout new neurons in the motor-control part of the noggin.

Thanks a ton, Ernie, I really appreciate that. Now I've got my lesson plan set for the week.
Jon

I wish I could put two wires together, and bingo. Mainly Jon and Ernie.
I have been frustrated by the exact situation the OP has stated, just not getting it, and burning pound after pound of rod.
I think that a good instructor will let you do that for a while, and then, when you've JUST about got it, give you a live one on one demonstration that ties it all together.
I have always said that I can teach a man more in one day about welding than he can get in two weeks of bookreading or just trial and error.
I think it's a test of will. The instructors will weed out the ones who will just NOT give up, and then finally appear one day with their hood and make it look all so simple.
Those "AHA" moments in life. Just like the first time you rode a bike and didn't crash.
Steve

I usually find myself keeping it too close. I realize this when I'm in the crater and the puddle comes back and covers my arc. That's when I pull it back and speed up a little.
This horizontal is a whole different kettle of fish, though. When I'm too close the only way I can tell is that I can feel the rod/flux start draging on whatever I'm practicing on.
Aye. I don't see progress from day to day, but I keep going out there anyway. I'm a lot better than I used to be.
Jon

Jon, intentionally vary your angles just a little and run a rod, then change it and run another. If you're not doing something right, you don't want to do the same thing with the next rod. You'll go through rod and pipe or plate, but varying will give you different results which you can then compare and go with the one that works. What I have done is taken rods in my hand and set up just like I was going to weld, and looked at all the angles and gotten into position so that when I did weld, I had simulated it for about five minutes or so. Welding is repetition to the point of boredom, and once you get it right, it's just like cruise control. Well, kinda.
Jon, your persistence is admirable. With welding, that is a good thing, as a lot of people just give up. You ARE going to get this. And you will be a better weldor for it.
Steve

I have been teaching welding for 14 years now. My methods can seem pretty odd to somebody who has never welded before. I like to give a quick demo of the process and machine settings, and then walk away. I want the student to simply burn a LOT of rod. I DON'T want to see every weld they run . In fact I don't want to see anything until at least their 50th rod. Then I will see if they are on the right track. I will comment and try to talk them through the improvements I want as to angle, arc length and travel speed. At around 100 rods I like to do the whole "Proxy weld" thing where I move their hand while welding so they get a sense memory of the motion.
Until they have run about 100 rods they don't really have much of a frame of reference for me to even help them.
Every month I get a new group of students and have to explain this process. There are many students who are complete newbies who just don't understand why I can't watch over their shoulder for every rod they run. They think it would speed things up. I know it won't.
There is no shortcut to learning welding. You just have to weld and weld and weld. Being a welding instructor means knowing exactly when to step in and give a nudge here and there in the right direction, knowing when to leave them alone to stew in their own juices, or stomp on a bad habit before it gets ingrained.

Hehe, well to be honest, my motivation is that I don't get to play with my new toy until I finish building it, and that means learning how to do horizontal welds. Of course, then once I know how to horizontal weld, I can think about other project I want to build also, and just generally be able to build things that require a better weld.
Jon

Many people think that horizontal welding is easier than vertical or overhead but in fact many people fail practical tests in this position, mostly due to 'cold lapping' which is often caused by too large a puddle flowing ahead over cold base material that has not had contact with the arc. Low heat and slow travel speed as well as poor rod angle are often contributing factors.
I would not worry too much about holding too short an arc as (within reason) there is really no such thing. Normally when welding with a drooping power source the amps will rise as the arc shortens and this will just cause an increased burn off rate which will require increased travel speed to stay ahead of the puddle and prevent 'cold lapping'. The puddle is not where you want to direct your arc as that material is already molten and really does not need any more heat as that will again contribute to 'cold lapping'. Concentrate your attention and arc on the base material at and just ahead of the toe of the puddle and ensure that all are fusing smoothly.
Heavily fluxed rods such as 7018 and especially those containing large amounts of iron powder in the coatings such as 7024 or 7028 ('JET' rods) (especially in larger sizes) rods often work best when run at high heat and lightly dragging the coating. When done right the flux will shrink like a scorpion tail as it cools and will fall off with little other removal required. When working at high heats in a deep groove it is sometimes desirable to add a little twisting movement to encourage the flux to break off especially if you are experiencing some fingernailing caused by uneven coating thickness or arc blow.
Most pros like to run hot and short, as this increases production and penetration and really is a lot easier. It is often possible to 'rest your eyes' and almost sleep as the rod does its thing in a deep grove or fillet and the weld progress can be judged by sound. The shipyard and heavy iron guys using 24" rods do a lot of this.
Watch the arc to ensure fusion, and watch the puddle to control bead size and shape and to prevent undercut or excessive convexity.
As others have said, the more rods you burn, the easier it gets. Don't get discouraged, and don't be afraid to turn the heat up a little.
Good luck, YMMV

Ernie L's post: I hope you don't mind, Ernie. I'm gonna save your post, print it, and put it in my "Someday" file. I wanna be good enough and patient enough to be an instructor, though I know it'll be about 350 more years of practice from now.
What's that saying? Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery?

Actually, you don't get new neurons, but there's no theoretical limit to the number of _synapses_ that you can grow. :-)
Cheers! Rich

I don't know what your actual experiences were, but for me, it involved some small light bulbs going on in balloons over my head ............... and a subliminal ......... "OHHHHHHHHH" in the background .......
Steve ;-)
And way back there, "Why didn't I think of that?"