MIG Miller-135 vs Lincoln 135 weld thickness question.

Two big names in small portable MIG welders are the Millermatic-135 and the Lincoln-135.
Both run on 110v and are 135amp MIG welders.
But yet the weld thickness claims are different.
Lincoln-135 - up to 5/16" Miller-135 - up to 3/16"
So why doesn't the Miller weld the same thickness as the Lincoln if they are both similar machines with similar amperages?
Reference: (to see specs on both welders) http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/DC12-43.pdf http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e721.pdf
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Both of these are really 90 amp machines with a 1/4" max weld. They can both weld 3/16" easily.
Miller is being realistic, Lincoln is in LA-LA land.
Both machines will only output 135 amps if fed a 45 amp line of 120v AC.
Where exactly are you planning to find 45 amp circuit of 120 v AC power?
The connector exists on he charts, but I doubt there are many in existence

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The first link is for Lincoln SP-135+. Really looks like relabeled SP125+ which I own. Product information for SP125+ always had note saying multipale pass required for thicker than 1/8". That got left off of this product info for SP135+ but is well covered in the welder's manual available on line.
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e722.pdf
Much better is the New SP100 product info with bar graph showing what thickness metal can be welding with solid steel wire, fluxcore wire and aluminum wire. Informative and realistic information that should be added to the rest of their welders product info and manuals. All that's missing is the volt and wire speed setting. They should add that bar graph to the manual.
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e7200.pdf
MM135 and SP135 compaired. http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/av564.pdf
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Do you have a reference to where you found this?
thanks.

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On 9 Sep 2003 06:16:26 -0700, mike snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Michael Sutton) wrote:

Do the math. 135 amps at 20 volts is 2700 watts. If the welder were 100% efficient, that would be 22.5 amps input at 120 volts. Since normal household 120 circuits are 15 amps, you're already short. This is the reason people say you only get 90 amps out of these welders.
But these machines aren't 100% efficient. A reasonable (perhaps a bit optimistic) assumption is that they're 70% efficient. That means they need to draw at least 32 amps at 120 to produce 135 amps at the arc.
Gary
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Gary,
a question for ya,
are'nt these transformer welders works with primary and secondary coils, meaning 110V and say15-20 amp goes through the primary coils, which is energizing the secondary coils , usually a different size wire with different amount of wounding (wind) around a center carbon or metal core. creating lower voltage and higher amperage. and that is where the loss is. Am I right? is it possible to make that loss a gain somehow????
also lets say in theory: that i can create a 30amp 110V circuit , with heavy duty connectors. with the 30 amp circuit, and original Lincoln internal wiring, can this welder produce 135 amp of welding power?
different topic, I was just reading through my lincoln SP135 manual , and it does say welding current 25-135 AMp. Are they making it up ????

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In the old days engineers got to name the welding machines, so you had machines like Betamig 200's and Millermatic 150's.
About 10-15 years ago the marketing departments got the power to name the machines, and now those same machines are called Betamig 250's and Millermatic 210's.
See they used to name a machine for it's output amperage at almost 100% duty cycle, giving you a realistic idea of how much power it had, but marketing peoole hate selling the same numbered machine for too many years in a row. So they started upping the numbers without changing the machines.
Their justification for the rising number was that they would just calculate it at a steadily decreasing duty cycle, so now we have 90 amp MIG machines being called 135 amp MIG machines because you could theoretically weld at 135 amps for about 10 seconds.
The Hobart Handler 120, 130, 135, Millermatic 110, 120, 130, 135, Lincoln SP100, 110, 120, 130, 135 are all 90 amp machines.
If anything they have actually reduced the duty cycles of these machines by reducing the quality (and therefore the cost) of the internal components. A lot of that is a necessity of the market. Nobody can afford to make machines like they used to.
My Handler 120 is better built than any of the current 110 MIGs despite their claims of "new" technology.
If they ever release an inverter based 110v MIG then they will actually have entered the world of "new" technology.
The only thing they have improved are the lifespan of the diodes, wire feeders and gun liners.
Mind you, YES you can weld thicker materiel than 3/16" steel with these machines, BUT it takes a great deal of care, or you will fry your diodes. I have done a full penetration weld on 1" plate with my handler 120 just to prove the point, but I did it with great care not to destroy my little machine. It takes a full v-grind bevel, a preheat, and lots of small passes. Letting the machine cool for a few minutes between each pass.
I do not recommend making a habit of it.
If you weld heavier materiel, the machine will get increasingly hotter and hotter . As it gets hotter the transformer gets less efficient and starts pulling more and more power from the wall to maintain the output amperage. Eventually you will either trip the overload protector in the machine, trip your circuit breaker, or fry your diodes.
I am sorry if you bought your 110volt wire feeder because you believed that you could weld bridges with it.
They are intended for sheet metal, and thin wall tubing, and not much more.
I love my Handler 120. This year it is 10 years old and going strong. I use it more than my Betamig 250.
We have 12 Handler 120s at school, and soon we will start retiring them as it is getting increasingly expensive to repair them.
We will likely go with new Millermatic 135s.

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These unrealistic ratings, are part of the reason I would like to find an owners manual for the Astro Powermig 100 I fixed up. The newer 110 model might be able to put out more amperage with newer diodes, with a lower forward resistance. But ***NOT*** using a 15 Amp circuit! I am very doubtful about getting even 100 amps for any useful time. Perhaps, just maybe on a 20-30 amp circuit. Mine, unlike the US model, has a 15 amp combined switch, and breaker, which would have to be changed to get any where near full output. Its best to take these ratings with a grain of salt! I plan on helping out the diodes in mine a bit. The stock heatsink is just a piece of sheet Aluminum. I am going to add a finned heatsink, with fan to it. In my neck of the woods, a new welder costs little more than new diodes!
Steve.
wrote:

<Snip>
<Bigger snip>
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: In the old days engineers got to name the welding machines, so you had : machines like Betamig 200's and Millermatic 150's.
: About 10-15 years ago the marketing departments got the power to name : the machines, and now those same machines are called Betamig 250's and : Millermatic 210's.
: See they used to name a machine for it's output amperage at almost 100% : duty cycle, giving you a realistic idea of how much power it had, but : marketing peoole hate selling the same numbered machine for too many : years in a row. : So they started upping the numbers without changing the machines.
This is known as "specsmanship". Very much like how they rate the "horsepower" of a compressor. The catch word is "peak" horsepower or the locked rotor amps times the line voltage.
Very misleading.
Regards, Tom
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Also known as "Sears Horsepower".
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Ernie Leimkuhler wrote: Also known as "Sears Horsepower". ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Locked rotor power is undoubtedly the maximum power the motor is capable of drawing from the line. It might be of interest to someone wanting to know how quickly a given motor can be burned out. :-)
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wrote:
<snip>

Ernie, out of curiosity, what sorts of repairs are you all having to do on these machines, and why is it getting more expensive -- are parts getting harder to find, or are more expensive parts wearing out, or ... ?
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We average 50 - 75 students per quarter. 4 quarters per year. So between 200 and 300 students per year. All the newbies start in gas welding , and then migrate to the Handlers for their first arc welds.
These are my best guesses after teaching at SSCC for 6 years.
Gun liners last about 18 months. Triggers last about 2-3 years. Gun cable about 4 years. Diodes about 7-8 years. Capacitors about 6-10 years. Main contactor relay 6-8 years Gas Solenoid 7-9 years Nozzles about 6 months. Gas diffusers about 1 year.
So far we have yet to have a wire feed motor go out, and only a few have blown their caps or diodes. We have a high attrition on gun cables because the students tend to abuse them, out of ignorance, not by intent. Coiling them too tight, pulling the machine around by the gun, dropping the gun on the concrete, clogging the nozzle and diffuser with spatter, it all adds up. I would guess we get about 10 times the wear on our 110 volt MIGs as compared to a privately owned one. I am amazed how well they have held up. t this point the gun parts are getting more expensive, they are made by OXO, but those guns are no longer OEM on any current machines.
Miller switched all of their machines and all of the Hobart machines to Tregaskis guns, so those parts are cheaper and easier to get now
Personally I think the OXO guns are much better than the lighter duty Tregaskis guns, which is funny since both companies are owned by Miller's parent company, ITW.
M personal Handler 120 has lasted 10 years. I have replaced: Main contactor once, fan motor once, gas solenoid once, gun liner 3 times, trigger twice. Mine has seen much harder use than most hobbiests will put theirs through.
If you want your diodes to last, never pull the trigger to burn off a wire that stubs into a cooling weld. Just wiggle the gun to break the wire off or clip it with snips. If you do pull the trigger to burn the wire off you dead short the diodes, which is not kind and will kill them quicker than anything else. This tidbit is from both welding repair guys I know.
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On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:32:57 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler

Would be interesting to have hour meter hooked up to the handlers keeping track of weld time hours and repairs.
Maybe binzel gun would work. http://www.binzelusa.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=B&Product_Code=BZA1-111&Category_Code=ALPHA
I notice Piecemaker 14A guns and parts listed in Miller's welding Components and Parts Guide now. Should be easy to get parts but have to wait after ordering. Piecemaker 20A guns and parts also listed in that publication.
I see complants at http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/ now and then about switch from OXO MIG guns.
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Not interested. Binzel guns are a bit wierd and hell to get parts for in Seattle.
We used to have a lot of Bernards (also owned by ITW), but once again nobody was stocking parts in Seattle for them.

Yes but fewer repair shops are stocking those parts.

Piecemaker 20A's are great guns, and we still have a few at school on our old Betamig 200's, but I am retiring the one on the Betamig 250 in my shop, and replacing it with a Tregaskis 400 amp Toughgun. I just got one off eBay for $50. I converted all of our BIG MIGs at school to the Tregaskis 400 amp Toughguns a few years back and they are the best guns I have ever used. Rugged, easy to fix if they break and nicely designed, with lots of nozzle, tip, and diffuser options.
I run a lot of dual-shield in my Betamig 250 and the 20A gun, that came with it, can't quite handle the heat.
The Tregaskis Heavy duty tips are nice.

They were great guns, and the crappy 200 amp Tregaskis guns that Miller went to just plain suck. Drop one 3 times on the floor and it blows itself to bits.
The 400 amp guns are at the other end of the spectrum.
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http://www.binzelusa.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=B&Produc
Weird in what way? They are quite popular in NY, I have a number of them. If you have the chance, try out an Alpha, really sweet torch. Consumables are cheap and readily available.

I recently installed a Tweco 160 A mini-mig gun on my handler, the old girl is nearly 20 years old and still going strong. The 15 foot tweco is a pretty good torch.
Linc
--
Best wishes,
Sandra
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The core is silicon steel transformer "iron". The transformer is only responsible for part of the loss. These machines also use circuitry to achieve constant voltage DC. There's loss in those circuits too.

No. Energy output can't exceed energy input. That would violate the conservation of energy law.

Yes, though not for long. (It'll heat up and thermally trip off rather quickly at 135 amp output.)

After a fashion, yes. They're not using a 15 amp household circuit to get that rating.
Gary
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If you go to Lincoln Electric site and download manual for SP100 it is rated 115V 15amp in 85amp out with 20% duty cycle. 115V 20amp in 90 amp out with 20% duty cycle. I think all 115V mini migs are simular because of power limits.
It can output more amps but at lower duty cycle. Also look at product information sheets they have volt/amp curves charted and duty cycle through out the amp range. Lincoln is being truthfull saying need 25amp circuit at higher settings welding thicker than1/8". Bet other companies should say that. I have welded with my SP125+ on 1/8 and 3/16 on 20 amp circuit. Not long welds so the 20 amp breaker handles it.
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On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:34:39 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@bellsouth.net (R. Duncan) wrote:

Correction, this is off SP100 MIG welder. prior numbers were wrong. SP100 it is rated: 115V 15 amp in, 62 amp 20 V out with 20% duty cycle. 115V 20 amp in, 88 amp 18 Vout with 20% duty cycle.
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