MIG Miller-135 vs Lincoln 135 weld thickness question.

Two big names in small portable MIG welders are
the Millermatic-135 and the Lincoln-135.
Both run on 110v and are 135amp MIG welders.
But yet the weld thickness claims are different.
Lincoln-135 - up to 5/16"
Miller-135 - up to 3/16"
So why doesn't the Miller weld the same thickness
as the Lincoln if they are both similar machines
with similar amperages?
Reference: (to see specs on both welders)
formatting link

Reply to
Michael Sutton
Loading thread data ...
Both of these are really 90 amp machines with a 1/4" max weld. They can both weld 3/16" easily.
Miller is being realistic, Lincoln is in LA-LA land.
Both machines will only output 135 amps if fed a 45 amp line of 120v AC.
Where exactly are you planning to find 45 amp circuit of 120 v AC power?
The connector exists on he charts, but I doubt there are many in existence
Reply to
Ernie Leimkuhler
The first link is for Lincoln SP-135+. Really looks like relabeled SP125+ which I own. Product information for SP125+ always had note saying multipale pass required for thicker than 1/8". That got left off of this product info for SP135+ but is well covered in the welder's manual available on line.
formatting link
Much better is the New SP100 product info with bar graph showing what thickness metal can be welding with solid steel wire, fluxcore wire and aluminum wire. Informative and realistic information that should be added to the rest of their welders product info and manuals. All that's missing is the volt and wire speed setting. They should add that bar graph to the manual.
formatting link
MM135 and SP135 compaired.
formatting link
Reply to
R. Duncan
Links to Lincoln welding articles
formatting link
't seem like La La Land to me.
Reply to
R. Duncan
Ernie Leimkuhler wrote in message
Do you have a reference to where you found this?
thanks.
Reply to
Michael Sutton
Ernie is right on the money, 1/4 inch is realistic. you don't want to weld anything heavier with a 110 machine. or you end up a with a cold-lap weld.
I thing even if you could use a heavier circuit than the recommended 20 amp. all the internal wiring and the 110 V connector/ wire is a 14 gauge wire at its best.
110V baby MIG has it's limitation for sure. sometime I wish I would have not bought my lincoln 135, but other times it is nice that you could take it, plug it in and weld at just about any place where there is a 110 connector. For that reason alone I will keep mine, and spring for a used 220V stick welder for the occasional heavier jobs.
Reply to
acrobat-ants
I purposely went to the Lincoln175SP+ because I wanted the extra oomph for when I need it. That is not often, but it really does make a difference. Spend the extra few bucks and have one machine that will do so much more. Buy the 175 220v machine.
Steve
Reply to
Desert Traveler
yes of course, a 220 V will do more,
but my point is...... reason to buy a 110V is portability !! 220V is for shop use at a fixed location. a 110V you can throw in the trunk of your car , take it "where ever" and a 110V receptacle will most likely be near by, and you can plug it in and start welding things. some things are not easy or impossible to transport to a shop. a few things come in mind, I fixed a broken fence /gate hinge for my father-inlaw, welded a broken shift lever pivot shaft on his riding lawnmover recently. A 110V baby mig was idial for the job.
Reply to
acrobat-ants
The baby MIGs made by lincoln are sweet welders. MY SP125+ welds down to 24 gage right up to 1/8" with recommended wires. The setting chart is real close to what I use. When I bought mine the equivilant millermatic and hobart handlers were haveing problems welding 22ga and 24ga steel. Nice welders but easy to outgrow.
Reply to
R. Duncan
Do the math. 135 amps at 20 volts is 2700 watts. If the welder were 100% efficient, that would be 22.5 amps input at 120 volts. Since normal household 120 circuits are 15 amps, you're already short. This is the reason people say you only get 90 amps out of these welders.
But these machines aren't 100% efficient. A reasonable (perhaps a bit optimistic) assumption is that they're 70% efficient. That means they need to draw at least 32 amps at 120 to produce 135 amps at the arc.
Gary
Reply to
Gary Coffman
Gary,
a question for ya,
are'nt these transformer welders works with primary and secondary coils, meaning 110V and say15-20 amp goes through the primary coils, which is energizing the secondary coils , usually a different size wire with different amount of wounding (wind) around a center carbon or metal core. creating lower voltage and higher amperage. and that is where the loss is. Am I right? is it possible to make that loss a gain somehow????
also lets say in theory: that i can create a 30amp 110V circuit , with heavy duty connectors. with the 30 amp circuit, and original Lincoln internal wiring, can this welder produce 135 amp of welding power?
different topic, I was just reading through my lincoln SP135 manual , and it does say welding current 25-135 AMp. Are they making it up ????
Reply to
acrobat-ants
In the past I have mentioned how important it is to plug one of these into a "box outlet", an outlet directly connected to your main breaker box.
My SP125+ is plugged into a 20A outlet on a 20A breaker two feet from my main electric panel. No extension cord. It is VERY EASY to notice the power drop when welding 80' away in my garage.
1/4" welding is possible, especially if the pieces are not large. Just this past weekend I was doing some welding on 1/4 plate to 2" ID trailer tube. The parts were carefully fitted. No problem with full penetration, as the whole assembly heated up to about 300F. 0.030 wire, max voltage, about 1/3 speed, lots of C02, flat position.
If I need to weld lots of 1/4 or thicker stuff, I borrow my friend Mitch's Power MIG 255. Very nice to work with, that one, and much less time has to be spent on prep.
Reply to
frank
In the old days engineers got to name the welding machines, so you had machines like Betamig 200's and Millermatic 150's.
About 10-15 years ago the marketing departments got the power to name the machines, and now those same machines are called Betamig 250's and Millermatic 210's.
See they used to name a machine for it's output amperage at almost 100% duty cycle, giving you a realistic idea of how much power it had, but marketing peoole hate selling the same numbered machine for too many years in a row. So they started upping the numbers without changing the machines.
Their justification for the rising number was that they would just calculate it at a steadily decreasing duty cycle, so now we have 90 amp MIG machines being called 135 amp MIG machines because you could theoretically weld at 135 amps for about 10 seconds.
The Hobart Handler 120, 130, 135, Millermatic 110, 120, 130, 135, Lincoln SP100, 110, 120, 130, 135 are all 90 amp machines.
If anything they have actually reduced the duty cycles of these machines by reducing the quality (and therefore the cost) of the internal components. A lot of that is a necessity of the market. Nobody can afford to make machines like they used to.
My Handler 120 is better built than any of the current 110 MIGs despite their claims of "new" technology.
If they ever release an inverter based 110v MIG then they will actually have entered the world of "new" technology.
The only thing they have improved are the lifespan of the diodes, wire feeders and gun liners.
Mind you, YES you can weld thicker materiel than 3/16" steel with these machines, BUT it takes a great deal of care, or you will fry your diodes. I have done a full penetration weld on 1" plate with my handler 120 just to prove the point, but I did it with great care not to destroy my little machine. It takes a full v-grind bevel, a preheat, and lots of small passes. Letting the machine cool for a few minutes between each pass.
I do not recommend making a habit of it.
If you weld heavier materiel, the machine will get increasingly hotter and hotter . As it gets hotter the transformer gets less efficient and starts pulling more and more power from the wall to maintain the output amperage. Eventually you will either trip the overload protector in the machine, trip your circuit breaker, or fry your diodes.
I am sorry if you bought your 110volt wire feeder because you believed that you could weld bridges with it.
They are intended for sheet metal, and thin wall tubing, and not much more.
I love my Handler 120. This year it is 10 years old and going strong. I use it more than my Betamig 250.
We have 12 Handler 120s at school, and soon we will start retiring them as it is getting increasingly expensive to repair them.
We will likely go with new Millermatic 135s.
Reply to
Ernie Leimkuhler
These unrealistic ratings, are part of the reason I would like to find an owners manual for the Astro Powermig 100 I fixed up. The newer 110 model might be able to put out more amperage with newer diodes, with a lower forward resistance. But ***NOT*** using a 15 Amp circuit! I am very doubtful about getting even 100 amps for any useful time. Perhaps, just maybe on a 20-30 amp circuit. Mine, unlike the US model, has a 15 amp combined switch, and breaker, which would have to be changed to get any where near full output. Its best to take these ratings with a grain of salt! I plan on helping out the diodes in mine a bit. The stock heatsink is just a piece of sheet Aluminum. I am going to add a finned heatsink, with fan to it. In my neck of the woods, a new welder costs little more than new diodes!
Steve.
Reply to
Steve Rayner
: In the old days engineers got to name the welding machines, so you had : machines like Betamig 200's and Millermatic 150's.
: About 10-15 years ago the marketing departments got the power to name : the machines, and now those same machines are called Betamig 250's and : Millermatic 210's.
: See they used to name a machine for it's output amperage at almost 100% : duty cycle, giving you a realistic idea of how much power it had, but : marketing peoole hate selling the same numbered machine for too many : years in a row. : So they started upping the numbers without changing the machines.
This is known as "specsmanship". Very much like how they rate the "horsepower" of a compressor. The catch word is "peak" horsepower or the locked rotor amps times the line voltage.
Very misleading.
Regards, Tom
Reply to
tmiller
Also known as "Sears Horsepower".
Reply to
Ernie Leimkuhler
Ernie Leimkuhler wrote: Also known as "Sears Horsepower". ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Locked rotor power is undoubtedly the maximum power the motor is capable of drawing from the line. It might be of interest to someone wanting to know how quickly a given motor can be burned out. :-)
Reply to
Leo Lichtman
The core is silicon steel transformer "iron". The transformer is only responsible for part of the loss. These machines also use circuitry to achieve constant voltage DC. There's loss in those circuits too.
No. Energy output can't exceed energy input. That would violate the conservation of energy law.
Yes, though not for long. (It'll heat up and thermally trip off rather quickly at 135 amp output.)
After a fashion, yes. They're not using a 15 amp household circuit to get that rating.
Gary
Reply to
Gary Coffman
Ernie, out of curiosity, what sorts of repairs are you all having to do on these machines, and why is it getting more expensive -- are parts getting harder to find, or are more expensive parts wearing out, or ... ?
Reply to
Andy Wakefield
If you go to Lincoln Electric site and download manual for SP100 it is rated 115V 15amp in 85amp out with 20% duty cycle. 115V 20amp in 90 amp out with 20% duty cycle. I think all 115V mini migs are simular because of power limits.
It can output more amps but at lower duty cycle. Also look at product information sheets they have volt/amp curves charted and duty cycle through out the amp range. Lincoln is being truthfull saying need 25amp circuit at higher settings welding thicker than1/8". Bet other companies should say that. I have welded with my SP125+ on 1/8 and 3/16 on 20 amp circuit. Not long welds so the 20 amp breaker handles it.
Reply to
R. Duncan

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.