OT - Basic Skills in Today's World

The Inca and the Maya were very technologically advanced. Both collapsed in a lifetime.

LITTLE BOXES

Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky tacky.

Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes all the same.

There's a pink one and a green one and a blue one and a yellow one,

And they're all made out of ticky tacky, and they all look just the same.

And the people in the houses all went to the university

Where they were put in boxes, and they came out all the same.

And there's doctors and there's lawyers, and business executives

And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf course and drink their martinis dry,

And they all have pretty children and the children go to school.

And the children go to summer camp and then to the university

Where they are put in boxes and they come out all the same.

And the boys go into business and marry and raise a family

In boxes made of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

There?s a pink one and a green one and a blue one and a yellow one,

And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

Pete Seeger

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Yes, but that spending went on for 44 years, as did their WWII spending for 4 years before that. But yes, you are right that it did help ruin them.

Yes we are. And we will be even closer 10 years from now, regardless of which party wins. Both parties favor ever increasing spending. The only difference is in what they want to spend the money on.

-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria.

That sounds like a set of rules that meet your aproval.

No, they were not technologically advanced. They had some skill at celestial observation, and a very rich culture, but they barely even used the wheel or any other form of technology more advanced than that commonly found in the Western world of thousands of years ago.

Jeff

Jeff

Actually, Pete Seeger only sang it, credit to Malvina Reynolds for writing it.

All of which is backed up, off site, routinely, at least as to the more important stuff, and all of which tends to have a rather extensive paper trail (an auditing requirement), allowing fairly easy restoration in many cases.

The banks outside the affected zones, and even in them, may well be open much sooner than you think. One neat innovation is portable banking centers built on mobile trucks or vans, specifically for use in disasters. Have you seen them? Most major banks seem to have them lately.

Most of which have either backup arrangments or ownership interest in various other exchanges, so that they are capable of continuing their essential activities.

See, e.g., Disaster planning saves Wall Street, and Corporate Governance, Business Continuity Planning, and Disaster Recovery, below, and especially: Policy Statement: Business Continuity Planning for Trading Markets Securities and Exchange Commission [Release No. 34-48545; File No. S7-17-03]

Don't underestimate the willingness of these people to work for deferred pay in an emergency. Also, there are interagency agreements for utility companies to provide essential labor and expertise to each other in emergencies.

There is no reason that they need to give the money out in an inflationary manner. They will simply exchange other obligations for cash, as necessary, though.

Extremely unlikely that there will be that sort of currency devaluation.

There may be a series of civil disturbances, but nothing that can't be handled. We've had that before.

True.

Has the Russian society and economy actually collapsed, even with a revolutionary change in government as well as all the other problems you mentioned? In other words, in most places for most people, does the mail get delivered? Do most people go to work each day and buy shelter, food and other necessities with their earnings? Do their kids get go to school? Does the electricity still come on when you flip a light switch? Does water flow from the tap when you open the valve? Can decent people walk the streets of their neighborhood without being killed and eaten by spiky haired mutants?

To a greater or lesser degree in most places for most people. But will that be a permanent condition, or deteriorate even further? Or will things soon begin to get better and problems get sorted out as a recovery begins within, say, months?

Jeff

| With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple

Are your sure that you really want to continue this subthread?

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

Why not? You think the tangos are going to learn something from reading these particular newsgroups? The same tangos who have been to Terrorist Training Camp 202?

Its better to know what you could be up against, and be proactive..then to blithely and blindly fumble around waiting for the sledge hammer to fall.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Their agriculture was extremely well advanced and both controlled watr to their benefit. Both lived in areas which could not support their populations without intesive agriculture. They lived on the edge. A decade or two of drought put them over the edge.

We live Over the edge in our use fossil fuels. Imagine our suppliers cutting us off. 100% of the food eaten by the average American is fossil fuel based. From putting it into the ground, growing it, harvesting it, to getting it to the table. Now cut the availability of oil by 60%.

I've built 3 houses including one 3 storey one of 5400 sq ft. That taught me not to build houses. Unfortunately I found a lovely piece of land on waterfront. I could afford the land and some building materials. I couldn't afford to pay for labour unless I sold one of my other properties, which I wasn't going to do. So, I built another house. At least I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. Finished the house then started on the shop (I built a small temporary shop first, of course).

I did contract out the slab for the big workshop, tho. There's 20 cubic metres of concrete in the slab on top of the 16 cubic metres in the footings. The rest I'm doing myself.

People like us *can* do it if we have to or want to. Others - can't. I've gotten a great deal of amusement watching the architect g/f of a friend of mine realise just how limited her knowledge base was when it came to actually building a place. She & he have managed to build a 24' x 20' shed in the same time I built a house. I had to lend them some tools, teach them how to use others and explain why, sometimes, 'near enough' is ok if 'perfect' is going to take 10X as long.

Also that hand sanding boards with 400 wet & dry isn't a real productive activity :-) Better to go 80 grit, 120, 180 etc. And use a power sander, or better still, paint it & forget it. It was only a facia board after all....

My 3 kids have no real interest in the skills I have, and I've never barred them from the workshop. Rather play computer games. Of my siblings, I was the only one to have an interest in this sort of stuff. Lots of tools about. Shrug. I forsee an interesting retirement fixing stuff for my daughters in the years to come, assuming that their eventual partners turn oout as useless as the majority these days.

If they can find me when they need me, that is.

PDW

You are ignoring the psychological shock inflicted on the survivors which might cause them to re-examine, and then discard, the underlying assumptions propping up the existing socio-economic system. For example, exactly from whom would they take direction if almost all the leadership of the Federal Government, Wall Street, et al., are killed within a half hour? Given that the currency is based solely on the faith and credit of the United States, and not any real assets or values at all, and that the Federal Government is suddenly decapitated (actually, worse than merely decapitated), why do you suppose things would just go on -- business as usual? Run the backups, get out the paper records, find the Secretary of Agriculture and swear him in

-- he happened to be in Iowa at time -- and everything will get back on track in a day or two? The geezers will still get their SS checks, the welfare checks will still go out as usual (I know -- the EBT cards will be refilled), people will still dutifully file their 1040s, the money will still be as valuable as it was, or even half as valuable as it was? Assuming that seems to me to be overly optimistic. The economic shocks from 9/11 cost the U.S. economy hundreds of billions of dollars, and that was trivial compared to a multi-city nuclear attack.

I'm sure you're right in that a good faith effort would be made to maintain something close to the status quo ante, but I doubt it could be done.

(rest snipped)

-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria.

| Whether they read newsgroups or not, they're likely planning all | sorts of nasty little surprises -- and probably a few really big | ones. | | Fact of life anymore: They're here. They're weird. We have to deal | with it.

I'm aware of these things. I'm also aware of the extent to which a free society is vulnerable, and how very little it would take to (quietly) take the lives of tens of millions of innocent people.

My carefully considered choice is to provide neither confirmation of effectiveness of any ideas they may already have - nor to suggest new ideas for their consideration.

I would not even consider asking you to not address these topics - my suggestion was that you consider the possible consequences of doing so in this (global) public forum.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

Especially the hit our economy has taken as Bush finessed his 'trifecta' into an interminable sucking fiasco.

It really is hard to say, but I do know quite alot from direct personal observation about how people react when their lives are totally disrupted, homes and jobs completely gone, communities devastated, loved ones missing, hurt or killed, little or no news from outside, etc. I'm willing to rely more than you appear to be on the basic resiliency of the American character in the face of adversity, as well as in the basic robustness of our social, economic and political systems.

As for the large scale economic losses, we've been down that road before, and not just in the Great Depression of the 1930s. Prosperity isn't just centered on Wall Street, it's built on Main Street, as well. There's a lot of fat and fluff in the American economy and lifestyle, and most people can manage to do with far less than they think, and they can rebuild and overcome faster than they think, too. Crises have a way of evolving into new opportunities. It's would suck big-time, to be sure, but it wouldn't suck forever.

And no, I don't think "everything will get back on track in a day or two," but I do think most things will get back on track eventually, in many cases faster than you think. Some things will, indeed, change or be lost forever. But a new "normal" will soon be established, perhaps different than status quo ante, but not all that different.

Jeff

Did they learn that from Eric Robert Rudolph?

I know -- what kind of person can actually park a car in their garage without moving at least one piece of heavy equipment? It's just not right, I tells ya'! It's important for me to have a shop, and I'm looking forward to teaching my kids how to make stuff.

I agree. I think it's sad that fewer people make stuff with thier own hands. Not that it's required to get by anymore... you can buy a lot of stuff so cheaply that there isn't a big reason to make your own stuff any more. And a lot of stuff has gotten so complex that it's far cheaper to replace it, or take it to a specialist if it breaks.

Well, I'd have to say that yes, they do. The world is changing. People who can fix things are still needed, but not to the degree they were before. There just isn't the same demand for, say, a room full of machinists when they can be replaced by a CNC machine or two. There is a demand for people who can do a good job designing things, though.

Most people can figure out how to make the stuff they deal with work well enough to get by... Maybe it's not perfect, but it's good enough.

Personally, I wish they had more shop classes in school. I think the most useful class I took in high school was metal shop. It was fun, and I Learned a whole lot about how to make things work. But my personal desires don't have much to do with the current economic reality of off-shoring manufacturing and competition with China.

It's disapointing that in the four or so years that I've had a shop in my garage, not one kid has asked me anything about it.

Jeff Polaski

I hadn't thought of that. My neighbors always pop in to see what is going on (65+), but never a kid from the neighborhood. I can remember as a child, going to the garage that was making the most noise. Grinding sparks could draw me blocks! I always wanted to weld, but didn't try it until I was over

1. Damn I was missing some fun.

I also spent MANY summer days watching the construction of the homes in my area. I am sure I bugged the crap out of the guys, but there is not a construction project I won't take on because of inability. I have done everything for a large addition. Including digging for the footings by hand!

Ok, to prevent some of the backlash--- I was in no hurry, and I could only get something that was 3½ feet wide in the backyard, so I dug it by hand. And for the rest of you--- my community allows homeowners that can show competency the option of pulling a "homeowner" permit for all phases. So I had to do that for footing/stem wall, rough framing, rough plumbing, rough electrical, final plumbing, and final electrical. Damn expensive for all those permits, but I did it legal.

Kudos for going the legal route....As a remodeling contractor, I have to play by the rules as well. However, I am curious as to how you felt when all was done. Did you get your moneys worth for all those permits??? Were the inspectors helpful or a PITA ???

I have seen em all ranging from the electrical inspector who spent more time finding a place for the Passed Sticker than he did looking at the wiring (he was there about 15 sec.)

Had another one walk thru the door and ask "who's gonna take the heat....??" I think he was kinda pissed afterwards when he found nothing wrong.....

I'll bet these two guys have no tools in their garages...

I have also worked with plenty of inspectors who know their stuff AND are nice and helpful with any questions. These are the guys who don't have the Power Trip Ego thing goin....Cause they don't need to prove themselves when the knowledge is apparent.

Anyone else care to comment ???

Jeff