OT - Basic Skills in Today's World

I'd sure like to have a 1 but if yoiu can find a couple of 2's that want to move north (Seattle area), send them my way. We have manual machines too. People qualified to do anything with them is becoming near non existent. I've been told I'm old school. Guess I am but, to me, 2 is not a machinist. They're a machine operator. A machinist, the way it used to be, is a machine maker. The tools he uses (mills, lathes, grinders, ect) are incidental to the job, they aren't THE job.

One man's catastrophe is another's opportunity. Raise your kids to understand both worlds and they'll come out alright. For sure my eldest (7yo) is learning to pound nails, piano keys, and keyboards. This is why we recently moved out of town onto a small farm -- the shift is doing him good. We replaced the exhaust manifold on the little Allis Chalmers we use for mowing and he learned a fair bit about internal combustion engines. If dawned on him the other day that checking the oil in the car would be a good idea -- though the "Dad, where's the carbeurator?" question took a while to answer and I don't think he really got it.

hex

-30-

And if the electricity goes out for six months or even six weeks?

In

Oh my God! Does this mean all my woodshop classes for next year (2006-07) at the high school where I teach have been dropped? Does this mean I am now out of work? Are my fellow IA teachers who teach masonry, auto shop and computer repair also out of work? Do we now hold our department meetings at the unemployment office?

The scenario you present might be true in some places, but not in all. I have been asked (along with a few of my cohorts)to work on a funding grant to expand our vocational offerings in our school, and maybe the district as a whole.

Glen

You mean like it did here after the last hurricane? No problem; my generator worked fine.

Jeff

And he can sell it cheaper...The market is driven by the buyer.If more people are willing to pay for a shop more builders will build houses with a shop.If most people do not want to pay extra for a shop they are not built.Builders try to build what sells.

Im a CNC machine tool repair guy. I front for a couple manufactures, do repair of their machines, do infrastructure repair (air/electical etc etc) and there are two types of "machinist".

1. Actually involved in setting up and performing operations, able to do design and determine if the machine is optimal etc etc
2. Button pushers. Somone who loads parts, pushes a button, takes measurements, maybe changes offsets, but basically a human parts loader.

#1 is very very hard to find #2 is very very easy to find, and in Southern California..is nearly 50% female, with many learning to be rated in Catagory #1

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

I grew up around an uncle who literally rebuilt his entire house. He knows how to do it all. I helped some while growing up, but looked at all as grunt work and took no interest in watching what the man was doing.

I'm paying for that now. There are some projects I'll take on, but I regret not taking a bigger interest in what could have been a great learning experience.

So at times, I have to grudgingly call in a guy - an electrician, plumber or carpenter to do things I wish I could.

On the other hand, I haven't owned a home in years, so had no real need to fix things. If it broke, I called the landlord.

My wife and I recently bought a house, so I wish I knew more.

But I'm also dedicated to learning more as I go along, so I hope to reach a point in the future of being able to handle at least some minor projects.

But yeah, I do have a workbench area and it's getting more and more use so I'm happy about that. I just wish I had paid more attention as a kid.

It depends a lot. Many women regard those kinds of technical skills as "nerdy" and stay away from such men. Understanding how things work, and being interested in such things, has become a wierdness/freakyness, and an alarming thing for many women. Stuff like that is only something one does for a job, and not something to be interested in during free time. Really. Having a machine shop, or even lots of electronics/RF equipment, is a social suicide with women. I'm talking about the age group 20-35 years. The "acceptable" hobbies include sports and culture, but definitely not technology/science.

Just today I noticed that my internet access didn't work. Checked stuff, and found out that ADSL modem had stopped working. I switched power off and back on, and only the power light was lit, but no life otherwise. I opened it, measured the SMPS voltages with oscilloscope, noticed that 5V had huge ripple, and replaced the electrolytic capasitor with a similar low-ESR cap I had. Started working again. Yeah, there's advange - did get internet access working still during sunday, and it cost me practically nothing. A normal person would have waited until monday, and bought a new ADSL modem, and propably paid someone to get it configured/installed.

Most people who want a shop want to build it themselves.

Yeah, that is not working out so well with the residence of New Orleans. The storm did little damage but the few broken levies which did the most damage are still a threat. This is not the first city to be pounded by a hurricane but probably one of the few where the residence simply sit back blame the governmant.

But you were referring to society. Did all of your neighbors have generators also?

Perhaps. I don't know. I was thinking the other day of what would happen to the metropolitan area just to the northwest of where I live -- millions of people who are primarily living in the symbolic economy -- in the event of a societal collapse caused by, say, a series of nuclear detonations in 5 or 6 of our major financial and governmental centers: say, DC, NYC, LA, Chicago, Seattle, etc. People smarter than me have estimated that even such "limited" destruction would inevitably cause the collapse of the U.S. economy and society. I don't see these millions of symbolic workers being able to survive a return to a more material economy.

My (possibly wrong) conclusion is that the post-modern symbolic economy/society is much more fragile than the industrial economy/society it replaced. Too many of us are no longer able to create goods, including food, and instead are now only able to engage in symbol manipulation -- the information/entertainment economy, a.k.a the post-modern economy. Lawyers, data entry clerks, web masters, writers, actors, singers, photographers, programmers, personal trainers, relationship counselors, what have you. Can any of them put actual food on an actual table? What happens to them if their post-modern services are no longer in demand? And that ignores entirely those dependent on "entitlements"...

I don't see redundancy and flexibility -- to the contrary, I see fragility and extreme vulnerability. But I could be wrong.

-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria.

Too late. They're both grown. One works in a big city as the CFO of a non-profit foundation and the other is a temporarily retired (children to raise) writer/reporter/political aide who is married to a lawyer. All are successful in the symbolic economy and I have no influence over them -- at all. If TSHTF, I can only hope they can escape the chaos and start over. All I can do is provide them with a slight chance, IF they "make it out." Of course, I also hope the S never does HTF, but I have no influence over that, either.

(rest snipped)

-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria.

Well, you may be right, but I am 52, so the women I want to attract are old enough to have experience with everything around them breaking, with having to deal with rip-off servicemen, and with being patronized by jerks at the hardware or big box stores. I think there is also a huge difference in appreciation once they own their own homes, cars, and appliances. Twenty to thirty-five year olds don't yet know enough or own enough to be appreciative.

I also make a big distinction between 'being handy' and having a nerdy hobby. I once thought about getting into ham radio, and my wife (now ex-wife) asked me "Is this one of those hobbies where you go into your office and close the door? We don't need any more of those..."

I have recently been responding to the postings on Craigslist where people are looking for someone to cut some wood, weld up a chair, or sandblast a motorcycle part. I charge them a large roast beef sub, and I've been meeting a bunch of great people.

The school that has any sort of shop class..is the exception, rather than the rule. And not just in California where I live.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

It is indeed social suicide with SOME women in that age range. It largely depends on if they are rural or rural raised, versus urban types. And if they had a handy father or brothers also adds to the mix.

Frankly..I find the Urban type of women to be shallow, superficial and in large part...high maintainence air heads.

Ive had more phone numbers handed to me by women Ive helped out on some fix it issue, or after having had a group conversation in a bar etc etc where the the subject of being "handy" comes up.

Some by young ladies looking for "a guy just like Dad", others from practical women..usually country types, to those who are clueless and just bought a condo..

On the other hand...a Pendelton button down shirt, pocket protector and tape mended eye glasses is the kiss of death no matter who you are. In the cities..being a country boy..boots, jeans, big buckle and cowboy hat can be the kiss of death in some areas. Primarily those who favor italian suits, Lexus automobiles and a brief case. Though its surprising the numbers of ladies who find the country boy fascinating, though dont want their friends to know ..oddly enough..in many cases, its black ladies who take the lead in this.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

| On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 19:02:58 -0500, "Jeff McCann" | wrote: || || I think the reverse is true. Technological advancement gives a || society options, redundancies, flexibility and the ability to || assess and remediate problems.

Probably two sides of the same coin. Along with the advancements and capacity for flexibility come increasing specialization and narrowness of focus that leads to brittleness. One of the advantages we have is the wide geographic distribution of our assets - which means that as long as damage is localized, workload can be picked up in undamaged areas.

| Perhaps. I don't know. I was thinking the other day of | what would happen to the metropolitan area just to the | northwest of where I live -- millions of people who are | primarily living in the symbolic economy -- in the event of | a societal collapse caused by, say, a series of nuclear | detonations in 5 or 6 of our major financial and | governmental centers: say, DC, NYC, LA, Chicago, Seattle, | etc. People smarter than me have estimated that even such | "limited" destruction would inevitably cause the collapse of | the U.S. economy and society. I don't see these millions of | symbolic workers being able to survive a return to a more | material economy.

I don't think there'd be a complete collapse. There would be substantial changes and restructuring. The agricultural areas would continue to produce food, for example, and there'd still be a demand for what they produced, but the marketing and distribution systems would likely change. The food producers would still want equipment, chemicals, seed, etc and that demand would likely be satisfied.

| My (possibly wrong) conclusion is that the post-modern | symbolic economy/society is much more fragile than the | industrial economy/society it replaced. Too many of us are | no longer able to create goods, including food, and instead | are now only able to engage in symbol manipulation -- the | information/entertainment economy, a.k.a the post-modern | economy. Lawyers, data entry clerks, web masters, writers, | actors, singers, photographers, programmers, personal | trainers, relationship counselors, what have you. Can any | of them put actual food on an actual table? What happens to | them if their post-modern services are no longer in demand? | And that ignores entirely those dependent on | "entitlements"...

In some ways, yes - and in some ways, no. It might be an interesting exercise to look back and ask just how long it's been since some majority of the population of any primary city engaged in the creation of goods. Haven't the cities tended to be marketing and information centers almost from the time they became regarded as "cities" rather than "towns"?

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA