Picture of the cylinder lifting hook

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| > | >

| > | > This is for the 397 CF acetylene tank that is very heavy. | > | >

| > | | > | Lifting by the cap is dangerous. The cap can deform, making it hard to | > get | > | off. It can just pop off, as the threads are not always the greatest, | > and | > | can be corroded. A couple of nylon slings in a basket arrangement with | > a | > | spreader bar would be far better. I once saw a man lose two front teeth | > by | > | pulling on a cap. It "looked" like it was on there. | > | | > | Make a better hoisting device. That one is dangerous. It may hold, but | > the | > | weak point is the cap..... | > | | > | Steve | > | | > | | >

| > Do you have any data to support this? Frankly I just can't see it. | > Comparing the strength of a cylinder cap to the weight of even the big | > cylinders is off the chart. | | I can't see the Statue of Liberty, but I know it's there. | | All I have is what I have observed since I started welding in 1974. | Cylinders were never meant to be lifted by the caps. Period. Cap thread | strength can be reduced by corrosion, cross threading, galling, damage, all | sorts of things. It's just a bad idea to lift by the cap. It also distorts | the cap making it harder to get on and off in the future, and lessening its | strength in yet another manner. You, of course, can do whatever you want. | I've just seen enough of them fail to put my vote in the NO column. | | I can't lay my hands on any "data". A quick check of the OSHA regs by some | knowledgeable person or someone who has the OSHA or DOT CDs would provide an | answer. But I no longer have the set of OSHA CDs. And even IF there's no | "data" saying it's a bad idea, it never happens in my shop. You can feel | free to do as you please. | | Steve | |

I'll just take that as the "No" that it actually is, thank you.

| >

| | Whoa, now that's safe. You will notice nothing touches the cap. I wonder | why that is. | | Steve ;-) | |

So you think the fact that somewhere in the government, someone has wasted thousands of the tax payers dollars is support of you nonsense? I don't think so.

Kind of makes me wonder how NIST kills gophers.

| > Remember- unless the cylinder and cap are made to some pretty tight | > tolerances, those caps are made to be applied hand-tight only, and are | > (occasionally) easy to loosen. With no paint or oil on the threads, | > they corrode away. | >

| > -- | > Tin Lizzie | > "Elephant: A mouse built to government specifications."-Lazarus Long | | I'll put it this way. I've seen a bizillion of them. And I wouldn't trust | one of them. When they're still on there two to three threads and you can | pull the cap off, there's something wrong with this picture. | | Steve | |

I think you are both hallucinating. If your cap threads are so damaged the won't support the weight of a 2 or 300 pound cylinder, they are not save for protecting the valve during transport.

I tested this myth in my shop just for grins.

I seated a cap ONE turn only, and hoisted a empty CO2 cylinder a 1/2" of the floor with a 5/15" chain and "S" hook. I then walked around the cylinder 360 degrees, lightly taping on the top of the cap with a 1 pound hammer. No problem, the cylinder did not fall.

When I tightened the cap to store the cylinder, it took 8 more turns to seat the cap.

EVERYONE, try this test yourself, if you would like to hoist cylinders this way. Caps do not just fly off without warning. They indeed have many thousand of pounds of clamping force, and most cylinders weight less than

200 lbs.

When Dad was in charge technically of a monster sized radar site and facility (was prime Electronic design engineer) - OHSA came in to check them out. Bathroom on springs with flex hoses... ok. Water in unique hoses and pipes for massive shock...ok... Then on to the office.

Oh - that coffee pot wasn't 3 wire! - that is a violation!

So dad took his polypot as they were called - a plastic pot. So Dad took a sheet metal screw and got a green/yellow wire, crimped to spec. a lug and had it under the screw. Wound and then cable stitched (old Western Electric relay rack experience) it and put on a green banana plug, had a thermo-plastic glove wrapped and then sealed then shrunk about the 2 prong plug and the plug. He brought it back and made a pot of coffee. The inspector came by and had a cup - it passed to spec. The plastic was grounded.

Mart> |

That is what I was envisioning. It wouldn't have to be that pretty. Just a frame and a ratchet strap to secure.

I agree with SteveB, however, everyone is ultimately responsible for his own actions.

See #5 in following reference:

See #8 under =93Procedures: Handling cylinders=94: =93Storage and Handling=94 gas cylinders: OSHA 1910.253(b)(5)(ii)(C):

My own decision is that I am not sure whether it is safe or not to lift cylinders by caps, but I will listen to Steve and his experience. Worst case is, I am wrong and I will waste 30 minutes in my life lifting cylinders the hard way (or making a lifting harness).

If the reason for not lifting a cyl by the cap is that the caps are not trustworthy, why not just make a big acorn nut to fit the bottle? Even if you buy a big thread chaser for the bottles, its probably much cheaper than the frame system that lab made.

caps fit well with good clean threads and could undoubtably be safely lifted by the caps. I have had a few with ill-fitting caps that were so tight that they would only screw on a thread or two and at least one whose cap was so loose that it would almost slide on and off. So like in many things, "It depends". My take on it is: "It is not a good idea to lift gas cylinders by the cap". Playing Russian Roulette is safe most of the time. (No offense meant to Iggy but I do not know any other name for it!)

Don Young

Hey, they're your teeth and fingers. You can do anything you want. I've just seen enough bad things out there in reality to have my own opinion. One second the guy's okay. Two seconds later, he's minus four front teeth.

Go figger.

Steve

no offense taken, Even when following good safety procedures, I do stupid things sometimes. Since most things are designed so that one stupid thing does not lead to disaster, that keeps me safe most of the time. And, by the way, the last burn from accidentally grabbing a weldment, almost healed.

Things happen.

And I suffer from PTSD I have had so many experiences.

One can get by all their lives and not have any bad luck befall them. Others do not fare so well. One day, a friend walked up to me with a blank stare on his face. He raised his hand, and he had no fingers.

Things happen.

Steve

| >>> I think you are both hallucinating. If your cap threads are so damaged | >>> the | >>> won't support the weight of a 2 or 300 pound cylinder, they are not save | >>> for | >>> protecting the valve during transport. | >>>

| >>> I tested this myth in my shop just for grins. | >>

| >> Hey, they're your teeth and fingers. You can do anything you want. I've | >> just seen enough bad things out there in reality to have my own opinion. | >> One second the guy's okay. Two seconds later, he's minus four front | >> teeth. | >

| > My own decision is that I am not sure whether it is safe or not to | > lift cylinders by caps, but I will listen to Steve and his | > experience. Worst case is, I am wrong and I will waste 30 minutes in | > my life lifting cylinders the hard way (or making a lifting harness). | >

| > -- | > Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their | > inattention | > to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating | > from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by | > more readers you will need to find a different means of | > posting on Usenet. | >

| I have not had a lot of cylinders but I have had some (probably most) whose | caps fit well with good clean threads and could undoubtably be safely lifted | by the caps. I have had a few with ill-fitting caps that were so tight that | they would only screw on a thread or two and at least one whose cap was so | loose that it would almost slide on and off. So like in many things, "It | depends". My take on it is: "It is not a good idea to lift gas cylinders by | the cap". Playing Russian Roulette is safe most of the time. (No offense | meant to Iggy but I do not know any other name for it!) | | Don Young | |

It's not Russian Roulette Don, it's just common sense. If the thread on a cap and cylinder are in such poor condition they can't be trusted to lift the weight of a 2 to 300 pound cylinder, it sure as hell isn't safe to protect the valve during transport.

If your vendor does assure the cap and threads are in serviceable condition on EVERY cylinder, find another vender.

I agree with SteveB, however, everyone is ultimately responsible for his own actions.

See #5 in following reference:

#8 under ?Procedures: Handling cylinders?: ?Storage and Handling? gas cylinders: OSHA 1910.253(b)(5)(ii)(C):

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A lot of people like to "over do" things when it's someone else's money.

Safety rules are much like studies, you can find one for any point of view.

But all the man made procedures in the world can change the law of physics.

Then why are you careless enough to promote chasing gophers with a "home made" device, that pumps undeterminable amounts of explosive gas, in to undefined underground cavities, and ignite it. Geez.

We are talking about lifting a 2 to 300 pound cylinder. If you would like a

4 to 1 safety factor, the threads on a 1/4" nut will provide that. About 3 courses of threads, 1/4" in diameter. And that's a grade 2 nut. Cheap hardware store stuff. Fix the lawn chair stuff.

Ref:

Now consider the threads on a cylinder. Eight or nine courses of threads, three inches in diameter. I bet the theoretical clamp force for a grade two material is well over a 100,000 pounds. Not to mention the quality of steel used to fabricate high pressure gas cylinders. I bet it would come much closer to the quality of a number 5 fastener. Now you could easily be talking about a quarter million pounds. And you are afraid to use it to lift a 300 pound cylinder? I would wager 99% of all cylinders in service would lift your entire welding truck.

What caps are designed for a enormous shock loads generated when cylinders are mishandled. Consider the forces on the threads of a large cylinder falling over striking the cap (instead of the valve) on something like another cylinder laying on it's side. Thousands of pounds of force, maybe even as much as 300 Gs. If your caps are in condition to shoulder this type of load, then they can easily be used to lift the weight of the cylinder. If not, they can't be safely FILLED at all.

If we all lived in a perfect world, that would be a nice thing. The caps and threads take the most knocks of almost anything on the cylinder. I have seen racks of hundreds of cylinders, with caps and threads in all sorts of conditions. It is unrealistic to "find another vender" in many small towns without driving lots of miles.

The best thing is to use common sense, and not to use the cap as a lifting point, which it was NEVER intended or designed to be.

Steve

See #8 under "Procedures: Handling cylinders":

There's a world of difference when you're on a job and the safety or OSHA guy is around and when he's not. Stupid people do stupid things, and stupid people usually don't last long. But there are many SAFE ways of hoisting, rigging and lifting "unusual" objects.

Steve

How do stupid people kill gophers?

Sure, when employers pay you to do stupid things, do stupid thing. But you have yet to prove it is unsafe.

So you think it is SAFE to transport a high pressure cylinder (steel bottle rocket) with a valve cap so damaged you can pull it off by hand?