Picture of the cylinder lifting hook

| > | > So you think it is SAFE to transport a high pressure cylinder (steel | > | > bottle | > | > rocket) with a valve cap so damaged you can pull it off by hand? | > | | > | I'm sorry. Where did I state that? | >

| > In every post, including below. | >

| > | | > | I've seen dozens of damaged loose fitting caps in the oilfield. All | > hoisted | > | in metal cages and chained off. I have never ever in my life seen one | > | lifted by the cap only. I have seen them hoisted by rope and chain in | > tight | > | locations where a crane could not put a basket. I personally think rope | > is | > | much safer than chain, but that's a personal choice. My statement that | > | there are many means to safely lift them, but personally, I don't think | > | lifting them by the cap is safe. You can and will do as you like. | > | | > | Did you get it that time, Bookie? | > | | >

| > If a cap is so loose or damaged it can't safely lift the cylinder, it | > can't | > possibly protect the valve during transport. | >

| > Did YOU get it that time, Dumb ass? | | I didn't say I thought it was safe, I stated that it is done all the time. | Just how much time do you/have you spent around welding? | | Steve

About 45 years total. Started doing it professionally in 1972. My dad taught me to weld at home when I was about 10.

Nope.

| | He seems to be ignorant of the difference between a side impact and a | longitudinal pull on threaded components.

Enlighten us. If an Ox cylinder falls over, and the cap strikes a solid object 12" above the floor on the way down, how much shear loading had be placed on the threads?

| | As I'm sure that -you- know, Steve, the stresses on the threads are | unequal with a side impact in that one side will be lifted while the | other will be pushed down and wedging the treads, thus producing a | stronger "joint" than a simple sliding fit.

No it doesn't. The threads only have to fail on one side to expose the valve to impact.

| | Apparently, "Watson" hasn't spent much time around the folks who | routinely handle these bottles: If his theory was correct, every truck | that delivers bottled gasses would have a crane rather than a lift gate. |

No, it's because a lift gate can raise and lower a half dozen bottles at a time.

Where?

Several references have indicated policy issues, but none have provided data that it is actually unsafe.

| > Agreed, several cites have stated the same thing, but I didn't see | > anything | > that said why. | >

| > I think the reason most companies forbid the practice, is they have far | > too | > many employees like SteveB, that are just too stupid and/or incompetent, | > to | > assure the cap is completely seated before doing so.. | | Doing so what? Making sure cap is seated before hooking a steel lifting | hook to the cap? So that the point can possibly go in and really cause some | excitement by buggering the valve? Or opening it? Or just damaging it? Or | tweak the cap so much you need a 36" Stillson to get it off and then have NO | useful protective cap? And then paying ridiculous amounts of money when the | cylinder is returned with a damaged cap? Is it THAT "doing so"?

You are halucinaing now. Selecting a hook that will not contact the valve is easy and should be self evident.

| | I don't know what your welding background is, but most places I've ever | worked would fire a man for lifting cylinders by the cap after the first | warning. Of course, in the hobby shop home environment, it is different.

Once again you choose to confuse policy with actual safety.

"Watson" wrote

babble snipped.

You again and continuously seem not to be able to grasp the point I was making. That is, do whatever you want, Watson.

Your way is the only way. Your way is the right way. Your way or the highway.

Well, so long. I'll take the highway. I always liked to work and be as far away from idiots like you as I could under work conditions. Guys who just knew it all and were basically dangerous.

End of conversation. You may go.

Steve

Is it me, or is Sensei obviously absent from this discussion? Toss a couple of pennies in the pot, Ernie. I could be wrong on this one, but I'll live and work by what I believe, and what I've seen.

Steve

Your the know it all Steve, you stuck your foot in your mouth, and now cannot find any data to support your nonsense.

He might not be able to, but I can. Read it and weep. From OSHA standard 1926,

When cylinders are hoisted, they shall be secured on a cradle, slingboard, or pallet. They shall not be hoisted or transported by means of magnets or choker slings.

Valve protection caps shall not be used for lifting cylinders from one vertical position to another.

Tim

| > Your the know it all Steve, you stuck your foot in your mouth, and now | > cannot find any data to support your nonsense. | >

| >

| >

| He might not be able to, but I can. Read it and weep. | From OSHA standard 1926, | 1926.350(a)(2) | | When cylinders are hoisted, they shall be secured on a cradle, slingboard, | or pallet. They shall not be hoisted or transported by means of magnets or | choker slings. | | 1926.350(a)(5) | | Valve protection caps shall not be used for lifting cylinders from one | vertical position to another. | | Tim | |

Several post have established the practice is often prohibited by more than just OSHA, but none have established it is unsafe.

Point, set and match.

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

"Tim Mulvey" wrote

Thank you, sir. I used to own the set of OSHA CDs when I did safety work. But now with advancing age and laziness, I didn't want to ferret it out on Google.

OSHA says a lot of stuff you're not supposed to do, and are contradictory and ambiguous at times but I totally agree with them here. But when I saw Aaron Hebert lose four front teeth a couple of feet away when he pulled up on a cylinder cap to lift the cylinder, I knew caps could be very dangerous. And after that, one never got close to biting me.

Ah, the smell of diesel, the gorgeous sunsets. The hard work, the rain that blew sideways.

It was like being a pirate for a while.

Steve

"Watson" wrote in news:4917a3ff$0$31797$ snipped-for-privacy@news.ThunderNews.com:

A side impact will lift one side while the other is depressed, thus wedging the threads in the coupling and, thus, strengthen the joint more than the threads alone can withstand.

Since "the theory" is that all cylinders will "always" be transported in an upright position with restraints so positioned that there is "no possibility" of any impact or other stresses upon the caps, the caps' primary purpose is to avoid premature opening of the valves with a secondary purpose of protection against minor impact.

As RAM³ advised, to survey a bunch of cylinders for yourself to see what the "real world" is like rather than some hypothetical dreamland.

If you are taking about a cylinder with threads so damaged they will not function to 10% of their designed strength, you can't possibly assure this with certainty.

| Since "the theory" is that all cylinders will "always" be transported in an | upright position with restraints so positioned that there is "no | possibility" of any impact or other stresses upon the caps, the caps' | primary purpose is to avoid premature opening of the valves with a | secondary purpose of protection against minor impact.

Do you have any data to support either of these assertions? I seriously doubt it.

| | As RAM³ advised, to survey a bunch of cylinders for yourself to see what | the "real world" is like rather than some hypothetical dreamland. |

I have been in the business for more than 35 years. If you can't come up with any data to support your assertions, you are the one in dreamland.

Well, I think everybody should retire to his corner and lift his cylinders however he wants. But I will feel considerably safer in Steve's shop. Sweetly, Vern

Well, I think everybody should retire to his corner and lift his cylinders however he wants. But I will feel considerably safer in Steve's shop. Sweetly, Vern

Funny, but you can tell a lot about craftsmen from their fingers and teeth. Or lack thereof.

Steve