Gas bottle mounting angles

Acetylene is not OK at a 45 according to what I've been told.

Did someone actually weld on the cylinders? Or are the cylinders mounted on mounts which were "gorilla welded"?

Steve, sometimes cylinders in the larger sizes are much cheaper to refill per cubic foot than in the smaller sizes. For example, I recently priced getting a 125 cf cylinder refilled with C25. I was quoted $50. About three weeks later, I priced getting a 251 cf cylinder refilled with C25 - $55. For five bucks more I get double the gas.

Your oxygen cylinder is probably a 251 cf. The acetylene cylinder you can look up from this table:

Welding Cylinder Data (capacity is in cubic feet @ 2100 psi)

Oxygen / Argon / Helium / Other High Pressure Tank Designator Capacity Height Dia. (height w/o cap & valve) K 251 51" 9" S 156 46" 7 3/8" ;; always owner cylinders M 125 47" 7" Q 92 30" 7 1/8" ;; always owner cylinders R 20 14" 5 1/4"

Acetylene Tank Designator Capacity Height Dia. #5 350 45" 12" #4 150 38" 8" #3 75 29" 7"

If you get a propane cylinder, I recommend a 100 pounder e.g.:

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Grant

Reply to
Grant Erwin
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I have NO expertise to recommend it, but I had my O2 and acetylene mounted horizontally on a portable welding truck for several years without a problem in all kinds of weather. It might be a NO NO, but it always worked well for me.

Reply to
Maxwell

I swapped one the other day was hydroed in '69. No problem. On many cylinders, the hydrotest cost is factored in.

Grant

Reply to
Grant Erwin

I guess my question is mostly about oxygen bottles. IIRC, propane, acetylene and CO2 are all liquid inside the bottle and have to be mounted vertically. OR, could they be mounted at a 45, particularly an acetylene?

My trailer has an O2 and an acetylene mounted vertically. They both were mounted with plate that is about 3/4" thick, and came from some salvaged use. They look like crap, and were gorilla welded on. But I don't like their high profile. The O2 is a full sized tall tank, and the acetylene is stubby, about waist high, but not the fat round one. If I stay with propane, I'll use the shorter tanks anyway, or go with a stubby fat one that won't stand that high anyway. But the O2 just sticks up there way high, and I don't like the leverage it has that way in sudden maneuver driving situations.

I believe that I could mount the O2 horizontally, and it wouldn't matter. Is that correct? I don't use a CO2 on the rig, but down the line, who knows. I do have an acetylene bottle there, but may go to propane. Would the acetylene be okay mounted at a 45?

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

"Grant Erwin" wrote

Just the mounts. I'll take some pictures and post them at Flickr before I cut them off. They're stout, but for a welder, they are crudely done. Welding a cylinder directly sounds like an automatic Darwin award nomination. They've been on there so long, the oxygen was hydroed in '96. Gonna be interesting to see what they will do on new cylinders.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

Believe it.

Grant

Reply to
Grant Erwin

I don't believe CO2 is in liquid form as usually delivered.

cheers T.Alan

Reply to
T.Alan Kraus

Vertically mounted is bad enough for acetylene in a truck. You really ought to leave it parked up and stable for a good while, so as to let the acetone settle back down. I certainly wouldn't use anything other than vertical, if it was regularly getting shaken around before use.

Propane is a liquid and you don't want the liquid to carry over into the regulator either (although it's not such a problem as acetylene). If you need to mount them horizontally (fork-lift truck), the cylinders are specials with an internal "anti dip" tube to reach up into the gas ullage space. These not only have to be mounted horizontally, they always have one particular direction for "up".

Reply to
Andy Dingley

The standard fork lift cylinders I have used supply liquid propane to the vaporizer in the engine. The did tube extends to the bottom of the tank to provide this liquid.

Reply to
NewsGroups

I agree except for the propane tanks and not so sure on CO2.

Forklift engines that are water cooled use liquid LP that is vaporized when run through the water heated vaporizer and the pressure is stepped down and tested with a common 30# pressure gage to be used by a demand style carburetor. Some systems use both a vaporizer and regulator that drops the pressure of a gaseous state of LP and then LP in a gaseous state goes to the carburetor at low pressure depending on the manufacturers specs.

Air cooled engines use a vapor withdraw tank. An air cooled engine regulator usually must be set using a manometer.The regulator drops the gaseous fuel to the carburetor. The higher rate of gaseous withdraw from the tank acts as a leak and freezes and limits horsepower. This is the main reason that liquid is used on water cooled engines.

When you see LP that shows frost, the LP is really boiling away because it boils at an extreme low temperature. Gloves and extra care should be practiced when this condition exists.

When mounting the tank horizontal, the tank has a location hole that must be over a pin at the bottom of the tank bracket or you won't be able to withdraw all of the fuel in the tank. The same tank can be mounted vertical. The drop tube is flexible to pick up in both directions. This is a liquid withdraw tank.

The shut off valve is either mounted in the vapor or liquid hole on the top of the tank itself. Depending on which style tank you order. They both look the same except for the valve mounting.

This is a common misunderstanding. There were some horizontal only tanks that had a bent dip tube years ago. I imagine they have all been replaced by now by the dual use tanks with a flex tube inside.

Reply to
RLM

thank you for the table that was handy and convenient

Reply to
Brent

Operationally the O2 could be upside down and it wouldn't matter since it's just gas in there. What you need to check is the DOT regs since it's on a trailer and I believe that the DOT regs specify that gas cylinders must be secured upright.

Reply to
Pete C.

over here the rules with regards to the transport of cylinders and such go with a simple set of rules

the rules themselves may not actually impact how that specific cylinder works. But the transport of dangeous products laws usually err on the side of a minimum safe standard. Wher ei'm from that means ANY cylinder for ANY purpose is supposed to be transported OUTSIDE of the passenger compartment and upright. Whether or not it matters its simple and easy to enforce whether breaking the rule is actually "unsafe" or not the rules being followed to the letter are safer and IF a big issue happens the firemen know HOW to respond to what they are facing. and also there is supposed ot be a sign denoting the UN hazardous materials number of what is being transported

In this province there was once a train derailment and fire with a pile of train cars carrying unmarked fuel gases. the spectacular explosions and the impossibilty of firefighters to fight it and the massive evacuations that caused changed the laws here to be extra draconian.

I dont blame them, My recommendation is to follow the recommendations of the local laws on cylinder transport not because its practical not because its pretty but for the simple reason of "BECAUSE THEY SAID SO"

Brent Ottawa Canada

Reply to
Brent

I live in Farm country and a lot of the locals have there tanks mounted at a

45°.

To be on the safe side I would check with the gas supplier, some one there will know for sure.

Reply to
Roger Shoaf

This excerpt from 49 CFR seems to indicate that there are no orientation requirements for gas cylinders secured in a rack. They specify vertical or horizontal for cylinders apparently secured more generally, but don't specify orientation for cylinders secured in specific racks. The exception notes pressure relief devices on flammable gas cylinders which would apply for propane, and of course functionally acetylene cylinders need to be reasonably vertical to prevent feeding the acetone solvent into the regulator.

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION CHAPTER I--PIPELINE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS SAFETY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION PART 177_CARRIAGE BY PUBLIC HIGHWAY

Subpart A_General Information and Regulations

...

Sec. 177.840 Class 2 (gases) materials.

(See also Sec. 177.834 (a) to (j).) (a) Floors or platforms essentially flat. Cylinders containing Class

2 (gases) materials shall not be loaded onto any part of the floor or platform of any motor vehicle which is not essentially flat; cylinders containing Class 2 (gases) materials may be loaded onto any motor vehicle not having a floor or platform only if such motor vehicle be equipped with suitable racks having adequate means for securing such cylinders in place therein. Nothing contained in this section shall be so construed as to prohibit the loading of such cylinders on any motor vehicle having a floor or platform and racks as hereinbefore described. [[Page 813]]

(1) Cylinders. Cylinders containing Class 2 gases must be securely restrained in an upright or horizontal position, loaded in racks, or packed in boxes or crates to prevent the cylinders from being shifted, overturned or ejected from the motor vehicle under normal transportation conditions. However, after December 31, 2003, a pressure relief device, when installed, must be in communication with the vapor space of a cylinder containing a Division 2.1 (flammable gas) material.

Reply to
Pete C.

Thanks. The acetylene bottle is shorter, no matter the diameter. Where it is, and as it is, is fine. The l - o - n - g 02 bottle could be put horizontally under the work table to reduce the height, improves looks dramatically, and take away the top heaviness of it. There is a substantial bottom mount, but only a band and a 1/4" x 20 bolt holding the top to the welder. I'm sure it would fail in a collision.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

The GTE Splicer trucks and vans all carried a large (200CF range) Nitrogen cylinder horizontally for air tools and cable pressurization, you would chain the bottle to the pole if you needed to leave it in the field. (And I suppose they still do since the work remains the same, though the racks may have been upgraded.)

They had a not-so-special slide-out rack in the back of vans or in a side compartment of the larger trucks (some carried two) with simple hoops to restrain the bottle during transport, and a chain to keep it from sliding out the open end of the rack. That and the steel valve cap being on the cylinder during transport was considered to be 'secure storage'.

You might want to contact the auction house where they sell off the surplus trucks, and arrange to be there on auction days - many buyers of the used trucks would consider it a bonus to sell off the interior fittings that will be useless to them, since they'll be using the truck for Landscape Maintenance. Bring cash and a socket set.

Acetylene cylinders MUST be used in the vertical position (*), and should be transported the same way so someone doesn't forget and send a big slug of acetone through the regulator and piping.

  • - The only exception is if you can find an antique B or MC cylinder for auto or motorcycle headlights that is designed for horizontal mounting and use on the running board of a Model T or eq. The only place I've ever seen them is auto museums, welding supply guys have no clue they even exist...

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

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Bruce,

I often see bottles strapped to poles after some work has been done on a splice (I assume). What is the nitrogen used for after they are complete? Sometimes I have seen the bottles left for over a week.

Shawn

Reply to
Shawn

Depends - sometimes you are doing work in the middle of a cable run, and they suspect a leak in an underground cable at the far end of the run - and if there's a manhole at the other end that is full of water where the leak might be, when the air pressure goes away the cable could end up full of water...

It's bad enough on the newer plastic insulated cable because it can be dried out, but with older paper insulated cables you get any free water inside and any cable that got damp is trash - and that little leak quickly becomes a major 1200 to 4200-customer outage disaster...

They'll put air on at the far end, past where you opened the cable to work. That way the leak you cause with the splice case open doesn't depressurize all the cable past you - now it's feeding from the bottle back toward you and leaking from both ends at the case you've opened. Meaning it still has the full 10 PSI on the cable toward the CO and the far end, except for about 1 case either way and

1/8 mile that will see a reduction.

If the bottle is only left there a few days, it's because they're working on that run. If it's there semi-permanently, the pressure man (person...) in your area is either overworked or lazy, and there's a persistent leak he hasn't found and fixed.

They feed air on all cables from the switchroom, with a compressor and air dryer, and they have pressure transducers at the far ends to monitor the pressure - you have to call in and tell the office you are working on that cable, or they'll get an alarm and send the pressure man out to find the trouble.

If you are in a rural area with really long cables, they run more bottles just because of pressure drop and latency several miles form the switchroom. If there is a need for one, they will stick a pedestal mounted electric compressor and air dryer in the field, and feed several cables from the far end.

Oh, and the power company also has some air-core cables deployed, but they usually do theirs differently so you can tell. The L.A. DWP hangs their Nitrogen bottles off the pole in a chain sling about 10 feet up, keeps the kiddies from playing with them.

Their bottles are often there semi-permanently, for example to pressurize a little chunk of air-core underground cable where the 10KV to 35KV feeder line changes from aerial to go under the freeway, then back to aerial on the other side. If that cable (or cables plural) isn't being fed air from a distribution station compressor, they need a bottle on it. Wet power cables go BOOOOM!!

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

I've noticed a few places that seem to have big enough issues to take three or four normal high pressure nitrogen cylinders and one or two where they went up to the big cryo cylinders for more capacity.

Reply to
Pete C.

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