Attn. Mr. (?) "JB"

That's AFTER flying ;)

Dammit John, now you're making me thirsty. Oh well, the wife's just called up to ask if want a cuppa teh. Beer can wait until after the sauna :)

Dave S

I read it in a reputable magazine, but you appear to be suggesting that they got it wrong. That's possible. The point of the article was that sometimes technology is not driven by practicality. Sometimes we are stuck with things that become standard, just because that's the way it happened. Another good example would be the use of gallons, feet and inches rather than a decimal system.

I can assure you from personal experience as a qwerty typist who switched to Dvorak that Dvorak is superior. It is so far superior that any suggestion to the contrary is just ridiculous. It truly is easier to learn, which my wife proved when she learned it effortlessly after becoming frustrated with trying to learn qwerty over the years. It is probably also significant that the typing speed record holders are all Dvorak typists.

Don't worry, I'm not on a crusade to change the world to Dvorak. I'm just trying to help those old guys who never learned to type. You could twist their arms all day and they would still never learn to type. But Dvorak is SO EASY that anybody could learn it in only a couple of days with virtually no pain or effort involved.

That's the great part about it. This isn't an issue any more because you can just switch back and forth on the new computers.

I am only trying to help the people who never learned to type anyway. Human nature being what it is, I'm sure that most of these guys will continue hunting and pecking away, making multitudes of errors, spending several times longer than necessary to type anything. But if any of you non-typists decides to try this, let me know how it goes. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

How about an article from The Economist?

See .

Meaning you will never, never, ever listen to any argument or idea that disagrees with your established opinion, no matter what. OK, that's your privilege, I guess.

This is rather funny, actually. You're claiming that it can be impossible for a person to memorize one non-alphabetical layout of the alphabet on a keyboard, but just by switching the characters around a bit, into another non-alphabetical layout, the memorization becomes nearly effortless? Now _that's_ what I call ridiculous! :-)

-tih

It's not just an opinion. There aren't very many people who switch from one layout to another. As one of those people, I believe that I am at least a little bit credible. It's a better system. Also implied in my original statement quoted above is that those who suggest that there is no difference probably have never tried it.

Usually things become less funny when you understand the reason behind a something at first seemingly arbitrary. The reason why the Dvorak keyboard is better is because there are certain letters and letter combinations in the English language which are much more common than most others. The common letters are concentrated on the home row, and the most common of the common are concentrated in the middle, to be typed by the strong fingers. The less common letters are put on the outskirts. On the qwerty keyboard, the common letters are spread around where you have to reach for them, and some common combinations are typed by the same finger. It is more efficient to type common combinations with alternating fingers. The only common Dvorak combination with the same finger is GH. In a day's typing, your fingers move about 8 times as far with the qwerty keyboard as with Dvorak.

Robbie or Laura Reynolds answered:

I'm fully aware of the claim that the Dvorak keyboard lets you type faster, because it is better suited to the English language. I don't really have an argument with that. What I'm trying to say in the quoted paragraph is that I don't believe you when you claim that touch typing is so much easier to learn with the changed layout, that a person who is unable to memorize the qwerty layout will be able to do so for the Dvorak layout in a couple of days. If someone has tried for years to learn to touch type with qwerty, and then learns it in a couple of days with Dvorak (as you say your spouse did), then I believe there's more at work than simply a different ordering.

To tie it in with RC, your claim is a bit like someone saying "well, my student had practiced for years, every weekend, with mode 2, but never been able to figure out how to steer the model -- but then we changed to mode 1, and he soloed the same day!". :-)

-tih

Actually, my wife did not "try for years". She tried several times in a period of some years. She is not very diligent.

Actually you are exaggerating to make my claim look ridiculous. Practicing for years every weekend would surely lead a student to success. The qwerty keyboard is impractical, which is why less motivated people tend not to master it. They take a whack at it and then don't follow through. It really is true that when the keys are in a convenient place, it is easier to type, and it is easier to remember where things are. It's not one random arrangement compared to another. It's an arrangement that is worse than random compared to one that is sensible and convenient. Ask anybody who trains factory workers, and they will tell you that training is more efficient with ergonomic equipment because the trainees retain the knowledge more easily and they are more agreeable about learning it.

I hope that makes sense to you, because there truly is a difference. But the best way to make the point would be to get a non-typist to volunteer and then report back to us in a week or two. Maybe Mr. Natural Philosopher is up to it. What do you say Mr. Natural? Are you willing to try it? All that you stand to lose is your bad typing and the insults that result from it.

I don't really care that whether Dvorak is faster or easier, it may well me. I just wanted to stop you from spreading a tall tale about the the QWERTY configuration being a de-engineered keyboard layout meant to slow down typists. Whether you read it in a reputable magazine or not, it is false. It's a good story, with a lesson to be learned, but so is the story of Paul Bunyan.

How can you be so sure that it is false?

Sounds like you have really taken this personally. I would hate to think of what would happen if everybody got the wrong story on the qwerty keyboard. It could be disastrous.

I read the article linked in your previous post, and it did not "debunk" anything. As the story goes, the design was patented in the 1800s and sold to Remington, with the purpose of slowing the typist. I noticed that the debunking started with Dvorak's studies during WWII, implying that there was nothing wrong with the Remington story. Not only that, but there was only the hint that there was anything wrong with Dvorak's studies, but nothing conclusive, the strongest point being that he conducted the study of his own methods. Presumably, the US Government was on the other side of this issue, as they were the ones who didn't want to pay for new typewriters and retraining, so should be believe the anti-Dvorak studies from the GSA, or would that be a conflict of interest? Sounds pretty inconclusive to me. Ask the world speed record holder which way is better.

By the way, is this any better than an AMA argument? Anybody want to make any angry proclamations about off-topic posting, or put me in a killfile yet?

OK, this sounds like a more reasonable argument. :-)

That would be a cool experiment! However, I suspect that NP suffers from dyslexia. If so, he'd have trouble anyway, I guess...? NP?

-tih

There are only parts of this thread on my server so forgive me if this has already been pointed out. The qwerty keyboard was made to place the keys for the most frequent letter combinations far enough apart so that fast typist would avoid jamming.

Actually in this case I'm not sure that he suffers from dyslexia. We suffer from his dyslexia.

Just kidding, NP. I had to say it because it was funny!

It is false.

Look here for the real reason the keys are laid out in the manner that they are:

He may also suffer from carpel tunnel syndrome. I had this and had the corrective surgery a few years ago. Although all the numbness and "dropsies" are gone, my typing has changed a bit. The most noticeable change was the "teh" syndrom.

Take your talk about crap to alt.crap.

By the way, what's the best trainer?