Autonomous airplane project

And pretty wrong.

I find that a slowish plane needs about 20W/lb to keep it flying. Actually at about 20mph you only need theoretically about 3W/lb for a clean airframe. However there are motor, and prop inefficiencies..

Thats a 15lb plane you have there..not sure a Telemaster is anything like that.

and each emoli cell

Yeah, but a bushed 40 is turning a matchstick 10x6 at 10K RPM. AND ist maxiumum outpoyt is usually quoted at an RPM that is way above what we us in flight - maybe 16-18K RPM. If you gear or use an outrunner, you get more like a thin blade 13x10 at 6K RPM. that takes about half the power for a start to give the same thrust and pitch speed.

And half throttle I have found to be about 1/4 the power of WOT.

The nearest thing I have is a 60" span black magic that flies at 3lb AUW. On 200W. On an 11x7 prop doing at most 6500 RPM. On a pretty inefficient can motor (60-70% over the throttle range). Flight times and what goes back into the pack suggest I average about 50W on that during a gentle flying around sort of thing. Thats precsiley *16W/lb* *average*.

Motocalc tells me it will stay up on a 2000mAh pack for half an hour. This is borne out in practice.

Power to stay up, as opposed to climb, is simply the models weight, times its speed, divided by its lift to drag ratio at that speed.

You can see that a low wing loading model - large and light, and therefore slow - with fairly clean aerodynamics , therefore high L/D..takes almost nothing to stay up really.

I originally built that plane to carry a camera, but its too nice to hack it about..

Now a senior telemaster I am fairly sure can be built at 6lb or so.

It probably needs 300W or more to get it to climb decently, but I doubt it needs more than 90W to stay there.

In general for floaty type vintage models, I find that 60W/lb gives a brisk climb of around 600 fpm, and if I target for a 6 minute flight time based on full throttle, on the ground, I get at least 30 minutes in the air.

So targetting 12 minutes WOT statuic will net over an hour.

On a 6lb model thats 360W. Lets say its running a 3s LIPO pack, thats

35amps..so I want a 3s 4000mAh pack roughly.

Here's a suitable pack

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$75.

AS for the motor..well an AX 2826/8 is ticking over and nicely efficient on a 12x8 on 3s LIPO. Thats $96 for the motor from a web site I googled.

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Needs a 55A ESC or thereabouts..

Heres the Jeti 70A with built in BEC - so no need for receiver batteries

- for $130

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So to date we have $301 for a power train to replace a 40 2-stroke..and fly a 6lb plane for over an hour.

Total weight of everything is 150g for the motor, thats about 5oz, and 224g for the pack. am 1.5 oz for the ESC. I make that a shade under a lb.

Remember that replaces the motor, tank, fuel, engine mount, throttle servo and receiver battery. So its actually pretty close to similar weights on a sport model.

Then we are just about on. However I assumed the $500 for for the bits that would break in a crash.

I made it $230 for quality gear.

At

350W brushed motors are almost as expensive unless you pick up Ebay bargains.

There are a lot of 350W Chinese brushless at very keen prices tho. And cheapo ESC's are about as well. BUT whilst suitable for those who know what they are doing, I quoted branded gear that I know is reliable and will do the job.

Er. Three cells. Yor power calculations were way out.

No, they aren't. You just don't know how to calculate power requirements and where to buy LIPOS.

As I said, $500 for the smashable parts of the plane.

Anyway, the bit of the post I replied to originally was referring to the cost of the batteries alone. I simply said you could easily get batteries for under $500. In fact I found a suitable pack for about $75...

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher
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I know when it comes to University type projects the problems are not t

big. I have some expertise that could help you. For example If i wer you I would get a trainer and a size .40-.60 is what I would get. used to do FIRST robotics and was team captain as well as in charge o the engineering part of the project. My question is for the autonomou mode you are going to eed a cpu with ports that can control the servos FIRST does have these type of CPU's that are C++ programmable. I a unfamiliar with the type of electronics you are using to control th autonomous. Ideally I'm guessing you are aiming to build somethin pre-programmed for autonomous but yet can be disabled for you to regai control of the aircraft in case something goes wrong. I know we also ha a camera which could also could be connected to the cpu on board of th robot in my case. I know the CPU ran on 12v and had a I think 7. backup battery, perhaps with a 3 cell lipo could be enough. Anyhow i all depends on what you are using but ideally you are looking fo something that is stable (has dihedral) and can possibly be controlle without ailerons just rudder and elevator or maybe just ailerons an elevator, it all depeds on your aims

-- scadavid200

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scadavid2000

| I find that a slowish plane needs about 20W/lb to keep it flying. | Actually at about 20mph you only need theoretically about 3W/lb for a | clean airframe.

When I think of clean airframes, I think of gliders. Not the Senior Telemaster, which is what we're talking about here.

| However there are motor, and prop inefficiencies..

of course ...

| Thats a 15lb plane you have there..not sure a Telemaster is anything | like that.

Doing some math

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gives the weight of their plane at 10.5 lbs, and their battery pack should be

34.9 oz and the motor 14.4 oz, so the plane itself comes in at 7.4 lbs.) That's 7.4 lbs without any power plant at all.

(Though maybe you can make the Sr Telemaster kit lighter -- I've never built one.)

| And half throttle I have found to be about 1/4 the power of WOT.

Fair enough ...

| Power to stay up, as opposed to climb, is simply the models weight, | times its speed, divided by its lift to drag ratio at that speed.

Simple ... once you know all these figures. Weight is easy, but the rest will require some calculations or in-flight measurements.

| You can see that a low wing loading model - large and light, and | therefore slow - with fairly clean aerodynamics , therefore high | L/D..takes almost nothing to stay up really.

Perhaps 300 watts was too high, but it's more than `almost nothing'.

| I originally built that plane to carry a camera, but its too nice to | hack it about.. | | Now a senior telemaster I am fairly sure can be built at 6lb or so.

Is this an all-up weight or with the power plant?

| It probably needs 300W or more to get it to climb decently, but I doubt | it needs more than 90W to stay there.

Even assuming 90 watts to stay there, a 3s1p 3000 mAh pack can't provide that for an hour. To be more precise, assuming 100% efficiency and an average voltage of 3.9 volts/cell, a 3s1p 3000 mAh pack can provide 90 watts for only 23.4 minutes.

| On a 6lb model thats 360W. Lets say its running a 3s LIPO pack, thats | 35amps..so I want a 3s 4000mAh pack roughly.

Well, from what I can find, you can't get a Senior Telemaster going that lightly. Looks like 7.4 lbs without any power plant at all, at least for the ARF. Maybe you can shave an ounce or two off that by not having ailerons ...

I went ahead and ran all these figures through Motocalc myself -- sedate flight, 30 minute flights, 94" wingspan, 1330 sq. in. wing area, 7.4 lbs w/o power plant, flat bottom wing, 2nd thinnest airfoil, sea level, brushless only, direct drive or geared, any size prop, lipo only, up to 8 cells, and it came up with me needing a lot more than a

3s 4000 mAh pack. In fact, the smallest configuration that came close to an hour up (54 minutes) is 9x 3000 mAh cells (in a 3s3p) configuration -- an Astro brushless 020 3T with a 5:1 gearbox (not something I'd have really considered myself) and a 12x6 prop, and it could maintain level flight at 76% throttle drawing 98 watts into the motor, with an AUW of 148 oz.

(I don't know what assumptions Motocalc is making for the `dragginess' of the airframe or anything like that (and it didn't ask), so we have to treat this as a pretty serious approximation.)

So it sounds like I was off by a factor of about 2.7 too high, and you were off by a factor of about 2.25 too low. So I guess you were indeed closer -- but we were both pretty far off.

| Here's a suitable pack

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| at $75.

A 3s 4000 mAh pack for $75 is a good deal. I couldn't find it on that site -- can you be specific about which pack it is? (They use frames, so your link didn't seem to go directly to that pack.)

| Then we are just about on. However I assumed the $500 for for the bits | that would break in a crash.

Fair enough.

| 350W brushed motors are almost as expensive unless you pick up Ebay | bargains.

Yup. Really, the motor/ESC isn't a good place to save money when you start getting into the bigger planes.

| > With 25 cells to charge at once, you'll want a pretty serious charger, | > but since we're on a pretty serious budget, let's say $100 for a | > charger. | | Er. Three cells. Yor power calculations were way out.

Well, I used the cells I could find the cheapest -- per amp-hour, the Emoli cells are even cheaper than what you found. (I wasn't getting into the exact configuration of the cells.)

Roughly $100 (on ebay, but new/unused packs) gets you 7x 3000 mAh emoli cells, vs. $75 getting you 3x 4000 mAh cells with your pack -- your cells are 30% more expensive. (Granted, the emoli cells don't perform as well as some, but they're not too bad.) But for only 30% more and not having to make your own pack, what you found may well be worth it.

| > And those Emoli cell are roughly half the price of anything else out | > there -- but you'll have to build your own packs. | | No, they aren't.

No, apparantly not. The pack you found (but I can't find it on their web site) is only 30% more per amp-hour.

| You just don't know how to calculate power requirements and where to | buy LIPOS.

Apparantly we both have problems there ...

| Anyway, the bit of the post I replied to originally was referring to the | cost of the batteries alone. I simply said you could easily get | batteries for under $500. In fact I found a suitable pack for about $75...

I don't think so. Your pack is not sutiable, at least not without two or so friends ... but yes, it appears that you can get just the batteries for your Senior Telemaster to fly for an hour for under $500.

Of course, Marty was being more practical, and you'll want at least two packs of batteries, so double that cost ...

Reply to
Doug McLaren

In article , Doug McLaren wrote: | | | It probably needs 300W or more to get it to climb decently, but I doubt | | it needs more than 90W to stay there. | | Even assuming 90 watts to stay there, a 3s1p 3000 mAh pack can't | provide that for an hour. To be more precise, assuming 100% | efficiency and an average voltage of 3.9 volts/cell, a 3s1p 3000 mAh | pack can provide 90 watts for only 23.4 minutes.

Sorry, I should have done this calculation with a 4000 mAh pack, not a

3000 mAh one -- so we're up to 31 minutes, and two packs could provide this 90 watts for an hour. (Still assuming 100% efficiency in the pack, however.)

(Motocalc said 98 watts, but we're pretty close to the ballpark here

-- and that 98 watts was for a different battery pack, and who knows how it guessed at the dragginess of this plane.)

| | On a 6lb model thats 360W. Lets say its running a 3s LIPO pack, thats | | 35amps..so I want a 3s 4000mAh pack roughly.

Reply to
Doug McLaren

| On a 6lb model thats 360W. Lets say its running a 3s LIPO pack, thats | 35amps..so I want a 3s 4000mAh pack roughly. | | Here's a suitable pack

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| at $75.

A 3s 4000 mAh LiPo pack for $75 would be a good deal -- but I can't find any on that site for $75 -- the closest I see is $95 (which still isn't so bad, but I know nothing about that vendor.)

So who's got the best LiPo deals lately? I'm currently interested in

3s or 4s 4000 mAh packs or so, perhaps 15C continuous and 20C burst, though I'm not married to those exact specifications.

I've got some Emoli cells (from the Milwaukee power tools) that I've been using, and they're OK, and they're cheaper, but they don't perform quite as well as other packs out there. And I'd rather buy pre-built lipo packs anyways :)

Reply to
Doug McLaren

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