Kicker?

Moisture initiates cure but other substances can also cause cure to happen.

The basic way CA's work is that they contain an acid inhibitor which prevents the homopolymerization reaction from occuring in storage. When the CA contacts a substrate with surface moisture present, the moisture reacts with the acid inhibitor and neutralizes it - thereby removing the "shackles" from the CA molecules and they then immediately begin their cure reaction. The amount of stabilizer in CA is tiny and can be measured in parts per million, therefore very little moisture is needed to permit polymerization.

Where kicker becomes necessary is on surfaces devoid or nearly devoid of moisture, and on surfaces that are acidic in nature - wood and paper are good examples of the latter. Acidic surfaces inhibit cure just as the built in stabilizer does. Therefore on these types of materials, cure may be delayed or inhibited depending on their pH level and moisture content. On the other hand, surfaces that are alkaline (pH > 7) promote cure. Thus as some folks advocate, baking soda accelerates cure as it is alkaline. However, every time I have tried it the results were absolutely terrible in comparison. I use nothing but real kickers, and hold to the opinion that cheaping out on CA catalyst is a waste of time on a model worth several hundred dollars and that needs quality glue joints to survive.

CA in plastic bottles has a life span - moisture slowly permeates these containers, just like it does to plastic fuel jugs. This is why I do not advocate placing bottles of CA back in the fridge after opening them the first time, and why I recommend allowing them to come up to room temp before opening when first removed - atmospheric moisture will condense on the inside of the bottle and on the surface of the CA much more when it is cold.

While moisture does indeed initiate the cure reaction through neutralization of the inhibitor, you really have to be careful not to add too much - otherwise you end up with a lot of trapped moisture and this can result in mediocre properties in the end. Too much surface moisture, while certainly allowing rapid cure, can cause havoc at the interface between the adhesive and the substrates. Basically, instead of bonding to the substrate the adhesive can be prevented from doing so by a film of water. That's not good.

CA kickers are an aromatic amine, and yes Shannon they are a true catalyst. They do not participate in the actual polymerization reaction, rather they promote it by neutralizing the inhibitor. Because so little of it is required (generally about 98% of these kickers is volatile solvents) the final bond integrity is very good, WHEN properly applied. Dousing the parts in kicker is a great way to cause such a rapid reaction that the exotherm causes blooming, with the end result a wad of weak brittle foam and very little useful adhesive actually bonding the substrates. You don't want to trap solvent in the CA matrix, so don't marinate the parts then immediately bond them - either lightly surface spritz them (LIGHTLY, and from a few inches) or else pre-treat one surface, then let it sit for a moment for the solvents to evaporate. As I mentioned in another post, the catalyst remains active for a while - on porous substrates several minutes.

Like many things, kickers, whether commercial (yea) or homebrew (boo), are best used with care and in moderation. Just because the adhesive cures doesn't necessarily mean you achieved the best bond that was possible.

Mike D.

Reply to
Mike Dennett
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Interesting, I've found the opposite. My kicked joints seem to be harder. Of course, they may be weaker due to reduced penetration of the surface being joined.

Jim - AMA 501383

Bill Sheppard wrote:

Reply to
James D Jones

If too much kicker is used, on thin CA especially, it will foam; reducing the strength of the joint. Used sparingly (it doesn't have to be soaked, just the vapor will do it sometimes), there should be no appreciable strength difference. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!"

Reply to
Dr1Driver

Thanks Mike, A very interesting and informative comment. Thanks for taking the time. I'm just plain lucky I guess, I live in Brisbane Australia which has a sub tropical climate and lack of humidity is NEVER a problem, in fact the reverse is true! It was interesting to read your comments on plastic containers being permeable. (Correct term??) I'm a firm beleiver in fresh fuel at all times, methanol being so hydroscopic.I've experienced the rock hard bottle of unopened CA first hand. Thanks for sharing. I get SO frustrated with the "a guy at the field said.........XXXX because he heard from another guy" kind of comments based on ignorance that float around. Like the one that really bugs me... CA doesn't build as strong a joint as aliphatic wood glues.... Grrr. Its the preperation and application you drongo's. Regards Shannon

Reply to
Shannon Parker

Shannon,

CA builds just as strong as any other type if it is used properly. CA, along with just about every other glue we use is FAR stronger than the pieces we glue together! The only time a glue JOINT will fail is if it was not properly prepared and glued.

Reply to
Paul McIntosh

That's all we do. We live in a rather dry climate, and the residual moisture that's usually present on any surace to catalyze CA isn't there. In some cases we'll very gently moisten the wood with a bit of spit on a finger. Don't need much.

Dan

Reply to
Dan Thomas

It got me thinking and I tried a very unscientific test. Living in the desert Southwest, I put a small puddle of medium CA on a new paper plate and timed the reaction. With no water, breathing or other vapor it took over 5 minutes to set. Breathing on a puddle set it up in about 2 minutes. Placing the puddle on a slightly damp portion of paper plate cause setup in about 20 seconds.

Totally unscientific, but interesting.

-- Dave Thompson

Reply to
Dave Thompson

Talking about kicker, is there any stuff out there that doesn´t stink so badly and so long after application? I´d be a happy customer in a blink.

In the winter I hardly ever use any kicker because that smell seems to stick to anything nearby. In the summer I do the spraying outside leaving the part outside until the worst smell is gone, still the part will smell after a long time. I don´t spray a lot, just a light spray from a reasonable distance of the part.

Reply to
Ken Mattsson

The actual amine catalyst itself smells pretty crappy indeed, at the least the stuff I use, as does any of it's brethren I've ever encountered. Try some aliphatic amine epoxy curatives sometime - whew! But with kickers you have some residual smell of the solvents as well, plus any scents added to those to make them more palatable. I am not aware of any kickers that don't smell to some degree as you describe. It was better with freon 113, BUT, I'll take a wrinkled nose over a hole in the ozone layer any day.

I have a bathroom vent fan over the workbench, which stays on anytime gluing is happening. Helps a fair bit. If you have an open ceiling they are cheap and easy to install.

Mike D.

Reply to
Mike Dennett

not really...any base will work as water is a mild base it works but in excess it degrades the joint Kicker is an alkyl alcohol one of several with other agents see

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to bottom and read the patent info ... for sure examples 5 + 6 I too thought kicker was too pricey and only need it like twice a year so was looking for substitute note h2o with baking soda is a stronger base and will kick the CA but at what price? see part 2 lines 13 to 20

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Reply to
K9000wner

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