new insurance ideas

I know, I swore off of this group again, but I got a thoughtful, intelligent reply from somebody who tends to write intelligent posts, so
here I am again. I thought I should start a new thread to take the discussion away from the Kline vs. Scholefield melodrama as well as the whole AMA-bashing stigma. This is more about real insurance coverage issues and securing flying sites in the future rather than "AMA: yea or nay" anyway, so here it is, taken up where the "AMA insurance questions" thread leaves off.
Abel Pranger wrote:

Thanks for saying that. It's nice to know that somebody is hearing and processing these ideas. Sometimes I fear that some of us will end up with bad knees, what with all of the jerking that goes on...
Here's a little tidbit that I stumbled across: I went out to a local blues club to play at an open-mike jam session tonight and I was talking to a fellow named Steve afterwards about playing harmonicas and guitars, etc. I asked him what he does for a living, and he said he works for a colossal insurance company with 2000 employees. Well, this was too good to pass up, so I told him about the discussion we've been having here, and as it turns out he has in fact researched the model airplane insurance market on behalf of a client company that writes insurance for a variety of recreational activities. That company eventually decided not to get into the RC market because Steve had told them it would take some work to open up the market, as it seems to be tied up by a large non-profit organization called AMA. I asked him what it would take to get the market opened up, and he told me of a few possibilities, including forming a small organization that self-insures through what they call re-insurance, which is where you pay from your own treasury any claims that are below a specified deductible, and any claim above that is paid by a policy that you buy from a larger company. This practice is quite common and very easy to do, and would likely become profitable in just a couple of years. In fact, he told me that he would be very interested in setting up such a venture with a group of local modelers, except that it poses a conflict of interest with his job. He expressed the opinion that the profit on AMA insurance is most assuredly exhorbitantly high for the company that AMA buys coverage from, so it would be nice to get a piece of it and give people a better deal at the same time. This was based on his own research, of course.
Steve also strongly suspects that AMA's clause about voiding your coverage by not following safety rules is likely to be illegal in a lot of states. He found the concept laughable, and he advised me to ask the state insurance board to say whether it is legal or not to write such a clause into a liability policy for a calculated risk.
In general, Steve seemed to think that it is highly feasible to open up the model airplane liability market without too much trouble. First and foremost, he said that I should ask the bureaucrats at the state capital to tell me whether there are any statutory conflicts involved in the county's insurance requirements. Apparently such conflicts are common, as there are multitudes of laws to regulate insurance in an unfathomable number of different ways. Bringing attention to such a statutory conflict, if any exists, would naturally create a situation where the county would be very receptive to listening to all kinds of new ideas.
As it turns out, Steve is also on the Parks Board of a local municipality, where they just happen to have recently passed an ordinance to ban RC aircraft from the city parks. I told him they ought to have a dedicated space for RC flying at one of their parks, because if it's popular enough to ban, then it would be a good idea to designate a specific location for it. He agreed. Based on HIS OWN opinion of AMA from HIS OWN prior research, he told me that he thinks it would be a very good idea to establish a park where a simple city permit and widely available insurance alternatives would allow people to fly. This guy truly appears to know what he is talking about when it comes to insurance. He was making lots of sense. The really interesting thing was that he already knew a fair amount about AMA from his research, and he expressed a real enthusiasm for rocking their boat, just because of the opinion that he had already formed of that type of organization before talking to me. Mostly I think that his distaste comes from the tendency for such organizations to waste money by paying too much of the members' money for insurance. From what he told me, it is quite feasible for a small group of a few dozen members to set up their own insurance company that pays the shareholders dividends when there are no claims, so that you end up paying a lot less in the long run.
Very interesting evening.... The only thing wrong is that this guy still needs to work on his timing when he sings. Other than that, he sounded pretty good!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
R & L Reynolds,
Thanks for sharing your ideas. Its nice to see thinking outside the box. Tell Steve thanks.
Mike R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
One of the best ways to protect yourself if you do not wish to be a part of AMA is a personal liability policy on your homeowners or car insurance. In the lawsuit happy USA, you need this even if you do not fly RC. Of course, you can't fly at club fields without AMA.
--
Marvin



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Good post. mk OT Were you smoking or drinking anything? mk
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Storm's Hamburgers wrote:

Good question. No, I was not. Steve had an IBC root beer and a few tobacco cigarettes, though.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
This is all well and good, but who is going to administer these programs? Most clubs have enough trouble getting people to mow the lawn, or hold what are essentially figurehead positions with a minimum of paperwork under the AMA system. Where are you going to find these tremendously generous and ambitious people who are willing to give up their flying and building time to establish and administer what is essentially AMA Lite?
Steve's plan is good on paper, but he totally and completely ignored the human factor.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@rochester.rr.com wrote:

By your logic, in all of human history nothing at all should have been accomplished by anybody, and the fact that anything at all has been done is a miracle.
I don't know about the people where you fly, but we have a lot of guys here who get things done. The grass is always cut and the fields get improved on a regular basis. Even building planes and learning to fly without crashing qualifies in my book as a sign of dedication and perseverance. If you want something, aren't you willing to work for it? I know lots of people who are.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Typical of someone who does not know the meaning of the word "logic."
My "logic" is that if it the activiy is not flying R/C models, period, finding someone to do it is nigh on impossible. Don't get me wrong, we have people that get things done too. Problem is, it's the same 10 people again and again and again. The rest "just want to fly," and have 100 excuses why they can't contribute more than club dues, and half of them don't even do that because that county field is public, and we can't demand that they join the club to use it.
I'm sure the situation is the same in your club when push comes to shove. Propose this self-insured idea to them, just remember to describe EXACTLY what is involved in setting up and administering such a thing.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@rochester.rr.com wrote:

Try to stay away from ad hominem attacks. Such attacks don't do anybody any good, and indulging in them makes your brain lazy.

That's pretty much what I was talking about. You are assuming that nobody wants to put forth any effort for their own good or the good of the modeling community. I believe that this simply isn't true. Somebody founded your club, the field, the AMA, and even the county you live in, when it would have been easier to just maintain the status quo. Somebody can start a new insurance provider or find an alternative already in existence. Regarding your statement that the same 10 out of 100 do all of the work, this is always true. But it shouldn't keep the productive 10 from trying new things. Incidentally, we have the same county field policy here as you do. I don't belong to a club. I'm one of the 90 out of 100 who use the county facilities but don't join the clubs. A few of us non club members are taking action now because we have the initiative to do so. Don't assume that all of the productive folks are club members.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yeah! We're not shackled by politics, good ol' boy networks, stupid rules and idiot wannabe leaders.
We're lean and mean and ready to tackle the situation! :)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
And your role in all of this would be . . . . . .? With your expertise in so many areas they can't fail. I'll check in next year and see how you have progressed. I hope it is better than the legendary K. Kline who set out to set the modeling world straight by organizing a group to better serve the hobby.
RS

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
My roll is to sit back and watch your feeble efforts to resurrect this dinosaur called AMA!

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
A circling vulture comes to mind. Making what you spew out is akin to carrion puke!
RS

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| A circling vulture comes to mind.
Don't diss the circling vultures.
They're far better at finding thermals than I am. If I see a vulture circling, and I can get over there, it suggests that this flight might last more than two minutes!
--
Doug McLaren, snipped-for-privacy@frenzy.com
We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I apologize, relating circling vultures to C. O. J. is a terrible disservice to the vultures. :-0
Our field is adjacent to a now closed land fill, but when it was still open a large population of sea gulls were always present to point out the thermals. Still have a fair amount of help from red tail hawks, buzzards of some type and our resident bald eagle. They just don't seem to mind at all sharing the air with models, gas or electric, powered or unpowered.
RS

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Red Scholefield wrote:

Gosh, Red, you're an ornithologist too!?!? As a matter of fact, a vulture's primary means of self-defence is puking on its attacker! EWWWWWWWWW!!!!! ;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The people who administer these programs are the people who would like to profit most from them.
Think about it!

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@rochester.rr.com wrote:

How hard would it be. A copy of the insurance policy, policy and telee. Most major insurers have automated systems open 24/7 and on the net
Mike

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@rochester.rr.com wrote:

OBTW I forgot to add this.
How is it possible to have 115 posts dedicated to a pissing contest about insurance when 28 posts are only dedicated to help a 15 yr old in getting started in r/c. You would think it would be the other way around.
AMA Mission The Academy of Model Aeronautics is a world-class association of modelers organized for the purpose of promotion, development, education and advancement of modeling activities. The Academy provides leadership, organization, competition, communication, protection, representation, recognition, education and scientific/technical development to modelers.
Seems to me that the "leaders" of long devotion to the AMA whom claim to be able to solve there problems, know there short comings, and fix them forgot the "mission" and cannot help " educate" a 15 yr old nor give the time of day to him.
Go figure.......
Now, if ya helped him via e-mail, please ignore this reply.
Mike R Reading Pa
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
One could say the AMA does lead by example! Right Red? Leader Member that you are!
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.