new insurance ideas

My roll is to sit back and watch your feeble efforts to resurrect this dinosaur called AMA!

One could say the AMA does lead by example! Right Red? Leader Member that you are!

Hello All:

I feel sorry for you poor Americans to have to put up with a worthless organization like the AMA. When you consider the income they get from dues minus what the pay out in claims, you can see that they have plenty of money left over to support their bloated bureaucracy staffed with old field geezers. BTW, I recently read their financial statement, and they are just too solvent!

A good example of their uselessness is to read their monthly magazine and ask yourself does any of this stuff have any value to me as a modeler? Certainly any RC magazine offers more useful content!

I think your solution is self-insurance either or an individual or by club basis. Also all clubs should accept flyers with proof of insurance no matter where it comes from.

Finally, regarding Flying Clubs in general in the US of A, I see many of them as old boys clubs for old white men with restrictive (read racial) policies. I have visited many of them, and I haven't always been welcomed. In fact, I have often been shunned!

Regards,

Mr Akimoto

AMA is not self insured. They buy insurance from an insurance company. They pay the insurance company less than ten dollars per AMA member for insurance, but they collect $58 per member in dues, so a lot of money is spent on things other than insurance. Of course insurance is the only thing that the average modeler wants, so the remainder of the dues could be considered wasteful. I'm not saying that it is, just that most members would see it this way.

What's even more interesting than that is that of the $8 or so per member that AMA pays for insurance, the insurance company keeps most of it as profit.

Hello Reynolds:

I do realize that the AMA isn't self-insured, and they purchase insurance from another party. When I referred to self insurance, I meant that either the club or the individual could get their own coverage without relying on the AMA.

In Japan, we have a entirely different system. If we had to pay an organization like the AMA seventy dollars or whatever a year, we'd consider them the Mafia!

Regards,

Mr Akimoto

Robbie, this is a most thoughtful post! Thanks!

As has been mentioned, AMA spends only abut $10.00 of our dues on insurance, the rest going to other programs. It can't be cheap to keep over 50 full-time staffers at AMA HQ, maintain a thousand acres of field, operate the very good museum, a small but impressive library, and represent the modeling community to Congress, the FCC, the NAA, the FAI, State and local governments, and the public in general. Yes, AMA does do some bone-headed stuff, such as the recent mass-mailing that angered many of us, but it DOES quietly work in the background trying to keep our frequencies secure, keeping flying sites available, etc...

AMA insurance is EXCESS insurance; that is, it only pays after your personal liability insurance is tapped out, therefore, it is a form of reinsurance. Can AMA find a better provider of such a policy? Maybe. Could we as AMA members demand that AMA insurance be mutual insurance, with each member having a stake in it, with dividends returned to us when profits exceed losses? Probably, but it would add another layer of bureaucracy to void most gains.

The bottom line for me is to work WITHIN the AMA on these and other issues that seem somehow askew rather than weakening the one organization that, for better or worse, represents our interests. It's up to us to make it BETTER, not WORSE!

Geoff Sanders

Well said sir!

Bruce

Geoff Sanders:

So what? The AMA has all this stuff, and of what benefit is it to you? Does the general member make a pilgrimage to the AMA headquarters in Muncie, IN to absorb and admire all the wonderment the AMA has acquired?

The AMA could be likened to your TV evangelists sucking dollars off the fools who are ignorant enough to support them except the modelers have no choice but to send in their dues - no dues no fly! And the fat cats of the AMA like the TV preachers can enjoy their fancy digs, model airplane library, outstanding flying field, and build a bureaucracy of field geezers to staff a bunch of programs that 90% of the membership doesn't care about.

You get a slick magazine each month and a slew of columnists throwing out platitudes about safety and other non-issues, and you're willing to support this nonsense? Are you really so ignorant and possibly stupid that you need this kind of information (actually chatter). I think not. You have been brain washed into accepting this organization as really necessary for your enjoyment of the hobby.

Ciao,

Mr Akimoto

My friend Randy has been doing more research on the AMA, at their own website. He has discovered that AMA does what they call reinsurance. When a claim exceeds a certain level it is passed on to their reinsurance company, but under that amount AMA is self insured.

Mr Akimoto wrote:

I have benefitted from research done in the AMA library. I have learned many things from the museum.

I'm a "general" member, and have been there three times.

Were they to begin caring, we'd have a better organization. If you don't care, why the pique?

I find that the more I learn, the more ignorant I realize that I am. I do find it humbling!

Could be. I discontinued my Mensa membership in 1993. Perhaps they came in the night and removed my brain for non-payment of dues! ;-)

While I disagree with Robbie Reynolds, I respect his willingness to propose something that would give people a choice regarding AMA insurance. Should you wish to present an equally cogent argument instead of an ad hominem attack, I will be happy to listen.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you disagree with? Not trying to pick a fight or anything. I just want to know what other people are thinking. You seem like the sort of guy who can discuss things rationally. I like that a lot better than knee jerk reactions and name calling.

I don't agree with abandonning AMA's insurance and getting our own. It would dilute AMA's buying power. However, IF your friend can work out a better deal through AMA, I'm all for it!

Thanks again for bringing this up!

Geoff

Robbie Reynolds wrote:

| How is it possible to have 115 posts dedicated to a pissing contest | about insurance when 28 posts are only dedicated to help a 15 yr old | in getting started in r/c. You would think it would be the other way | around.

No, I wouldn't automatically think it would be the other way around.

28 posts is a lot for a thread like that, and once you've gotten that high, the issue has probably been covered very well.

And there's not likely to be much disagreement -- most of us agree on the generalities of how to help a newbie get into the hobby. Sure, we may disagree to some degree on the specifics -- electric vs. glow vs. glider, instructor vs. self taught, which plane is best, etc. -- but for the most part we agree.

If the 15 year old was helped properly by those 28 posts, what more could you possibly want?

The length of a thread has nothing to do with it's usefuless.

| A good example of their uselessness is to read their monthly magazine | and ask yourself does any of this stuff have any value to me as a | modeler? Certainly any RC magazine offers more useful content!

I generally like the magazine. It's not the greatest thing, but

Also, I believe that under IRS rules, non-profit organizations must send out a newsletter of some sort periodically. I'm not sure they could do away with the magazine entirely, though they could certainly tone it down greatly.

| I think your solution is self-insurance either or an individual or by | club basis. Also all clubs should accept flyers with proof of insurance | no matter where it comes from.

As for a club, as long as it's an AMA chartered club, it's easy and cheap to get PRIMARY insurance for the club/property owner through the AMA. This alone is probably a large part of why so many sites require that pilots be AMA members -- essentially the members subsidize the club's insurance, shifting the cost and paperwork from the club to the individual members.

Right or wrong, it's popular, and you'll have a difficult time convincing many clubs to change.

| Finally, regarding Flying Clubs in general in the US of A, I see many | of them as old boys clubs for old white men with restrictive (read | racial) policies.

Can you give us some specific examples? Specific clubs and the approximate dates would be helpful.

| I have visited many of them, and I haven't always been welcomed. In | fact, I have often been shunned!

Why were you shunned? (Or, what is it about yourself that you think caused them to shun you?)

I've not noticed any clubs to be racist or to shun new people, though usually it helps if somebody new makes the effort to go up to people and talk to them rather than wait for somebody else to make the first move. Of course, the number of clubs I've visited is relatively small ...

| Really, I think AMA would be a much better organization without the | insurance. Just let them focus on museums, competition, education | and general heritage. They really do a good job on these things.

Perhaps it would be, but it's the insurance that brings in the members. Get rid of the insurance, and 80% of the AMA's members would probably go bye-bye.

The AMA's first priority is, just like any other organization, is to ensure it's own existence. Removing the insurance would have a strong negative effect in this regard, so it's not likely to happen no matter how strongly you feel in this regard.

As I've said before, it was a brilliant move on the AMA's part to start offering insurance like they are, and to push it as the only acceptable form of insurance at AMA clubs.

Two very important points there. First, it is sad but true that each organization starts with a mission, but sooner or later the mission always becomes self preservation. That sucks.

Second, it is simple enough to create a situation where AMA can't sell memberships just for the insurance. If people had an example to follow, then everybody might soon find insurance elsewhere, and there would be no incentive for the average modeler to join AMA. Then only the enthusiasts of control line, free flight and other archaic pursuits would join. These folks remind me of Civil War reenactors, except that Civil War reenactors dig in their own pockets for their costumes and supplies. I think it would be entirely appropriate for Sunday fliers to use cheap alternative insurance while the esoteric crowd maintains AMA as a heritage society on their own dime.

Well, that certainly is a disagreement. I don't like monopolies. I like competition in the marketplace. I also don't like being forced to do business with a specific company so that a relatively minor group can use the excess money to further their own interests.

By the way, I sent a reply to your email, but your address bounced back at me.

One only needs to look at R/C boat racing to see what such competition does. There are 3 different organizations in the US alone. The sport is a mess. In some cases, monopolies are not such a bad thing.

What is wrong with the sport of RC boat racing?