115 pc drill sets a waste?



    O.K. Sort of what I expected. I find one line in the first one interesting:
=====================================================================        Number of Drawers: 3.000 ====================================================================    They could offer some with an increment of 0.001 drawer? :-)
    Same applies to all of the above.
    I had to go to the catalog page to see the images.
    A little too expensive for me. I keep envelopes of the various sized drills in order in a storage bin -- except for the two sizes of left-hand drill bits, which are stored where I have to remember to look for them to avoid accidental use. My drill presses don't have reverse available, just the hand held electric and pneumatic drill motors.

    Yes -- those actually work. But the catalog numbers and the main catalog URL were sufficient. And easy enough to go from one to the next with the "find it" near top center of each page.
    Interesting that they only list 0.5 mm size steps for the metric drill bits. I've got two HUOT metric drill indexes with 0.1 mm steps. I guess that Huot makes the dispensers in 0.1mm size steps too.
    I like the #1 - #80 dispenser (the most expensive one listed there.)
    Thanks,         DoN.
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DoN. Nichols wrote:
(...)

An accurate *and* precise description; people still complain. :)
(...)

One bonus of the drawers is that after I retrieve a bit, I can take one of it's mates and prop it up as a marker so that I can put the bit back in the proper bin quickly.
(...)

Penn Tool is a little cheaper for that part: http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryIDc25
That is a nice one. I have it's little brother (#1 - #60) and the fractional dispenser. Both are real time savers.
--Winston
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    How do you define a non-integer count of drawers? By weight compared to some standard drawer?
    There is such a thing as excess precision. I knew a machinist who did woodwork to 0.001" -- even knowing that it was going to change when the next cloud blew by. :-)
    He was doing it for himself, so he was free to do so -- but doing it for someone else, and *charging* for the extra time and care needed to reach that level of precision is another thing. Of course, if the drawings *called* for that level of precision, everything would be rejected by outgoing inspection anyway, unless the whole shop and inspection area were climate controlled. :-)

    O.K. When I go to the bins of bit envelopes, that bit is going into an index to replace the too-dull one as soon as its immediate job is done.

    O.K.
    Yes -- quite a bit cheaper. And I see that *they*, at least, list the smaller metric in steps of 0.1 mm -- though to cover the full range that I have we still have problems -- because the 7.0 to 13.0 (in the 1 mm to 13 mm case) is in steps of 0.5 mm. Hmm not using the 1.0 to 7.0, which give 13 extra spaces in that one, but I need 51 spaces for the 7.0 to 12.0 which I actually have in an index -- and need to re-label the drawers. Two of the 1 to 13 drawers should do it. The question is whether the smaller end of the metric drawers would hold 7.0 mm or larger bits?

BTW    Have you noticed the little hook on the left side of the     partition between the letter and number sizes in the 115 bit     HUOT indexes? Ever wondered what it is for? It turns out to be     just right to hold the HUOT #61-80 index, which I already had,     so I have a 125 bit index instead of 115 bit. :-)
    I wonder which of the wire size ranges is covered by the "Fractional, Wire & letter Dispensers"
    And I wonder which of the drawer sets has been relabeled to make the #1 to #80 (84 compartments) set. Since the price is the same as the "Metric 1mm to 6.9 mm by 0.1 mm" set, and I suspect that they go by the amount of metal used, they may be the same but for labeling. But the metric set would use only 59 slots, not 84.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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DoN. Nichols wrote:

Either that or by determining what fraction of an additional bit a given drawer could accommodate in relation to the average drawer of the same size range. I will stop here because I do not want the headache. :)

'Harmless Crazy'. I know it well.

(Insert sea story of machinists passing part inspection by thermally growing the workpiece in hand on the way to QC.)

Ah! I'm not that systematic.
:)
--Winston
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DoN. Nichols wrote:

Oh, foo - that's just stupid software. I've seen it on packing lists and parts lists, it just means "exactly." (like "quantity required: 1.000) ;-)
BTW, today I saw Joe the Real Machinist turn an aluminum part down to plus or minus half a thou or less. I was sitting here in my office, and he came to my door, and said, "Hey, Rich, my dial caliper said I still have seven thou to go, so I miked it and it's within a thou, but I think I can kiss it down to dead nuts. My dial caliper is off by seven thou!" I said, "Well, it's a good thing you stopped to check!"
I think he got it dead nuts, at least at room temperature. I think it's a pride thing. :-)
Oh, just remembered - for lube he was using something that looks and feels very much like 80 weight gear oil. And he had a brand-new carbide insert in his bit holder in his tool holder.
Cheers! Rich
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    Maybe so -- but these URLs were built at the time of your product search and discarded when you left the site, so they lead to nothing, now.
    We really need the enco part number to know for sure what you are pointing to.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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DoN. Nichols wrote:

Mea culpa, DoN.
See also my corrected reply to PrecisionmachinisT
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO0644&PMAKA09-0012 http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO1032&PMAKA09-0013 http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO0734&PMAKA09-0014 http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO1202&PMAKA09-0015 http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNOH69406&PMAKA$0-5943
--Winston
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I like cobalt bits for drilling stuff like steel pipe. However, with small diameter bits, it seems more likely you'll just break them before they wear out.
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 08:25:46 -0400, "Existential Angst"

It depends on your usual material and what you are using to drive the drill, i.e. loosey-goosey drill press, Bridgeport, lathe, etc. In general the sharper points work better with softer material and the blunter points [135 degree] work better for hard material. The 118 degree is a general point. A 135 degree w/ or w/o split point will tend to walk less than a 118 degree point. Unless you have a need to drill the deeper holes, the jobber length drills flex more. Without anymore information on what you are doing I suggest 135 degree screw machine length drills. One source is http://www.wttool.com/index/page/category/category_id/14411/ http://www.wttool.com/index/page/category/category_id/14587/ http://www.wttool.com/index/page/category/category_id/14598/

Cobalt, while it increases the heat/wear resistance also makes a drill more brittle and prone to breakage/chipping. Unless you are in high volume production with rigid equipment, good quality HSS drills will most likely be more satisfactory and economical. TiN coating can be helpful in reducing chip welding.
One dodge that I have found helpful is to notice which taps/drills I use the most frequently, and buy both taper and bottoming taps, and possibly a gun tap, with 135 degree split point drills for a tap drill, and both tight and lose body clearence. I like to keep the taps and drills in a plastic reloader box as this keeps everthing together and protects the tools. http://tool.wttool.com/search?p=KK&srid=S9-2&lbc=wttool&ts=custom&pw=taps&uid!976513&isort=score&view=grid&w=Bottoming%20Tap&rk=2 http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid2549/Product/MTM_20_Rd_Slip_Top http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid2584/Product/MTM_22_Rd_Box_for_Ultra_Mags__416_Rigby
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I thought that 135 bits would walk more, especially when hand-held. What am I missing?
Pete Stanaitis ---------------------
F. George McDuffee wrote:

http://tool.wttool.com/search?p=KK&srid=S9-2&lbc=wttool&ts=custom&pw=taps&uid!976513&isort=score&view=grid&w=Bottoming%20Tap&rk=2
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid2584/Product/MTM_22_Rd_Box_for_Ultra_Mags__416_Rigby
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spaco top-posted:

I'd also like to know. Doesn't a center-punch (or center drill, on a mill) help with that? Have you found drill bits to walk in an ordinary drill press?
I'd have thought that the 135 degree bit would be applicable for a more aggressive cut than a 115, or maybe it simply has to do with what you want the bottom of the hole to look like, but I simply don't know.
Thanks, Rich
[previous thread snipped after top-post.]
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Buy a couple cheap assed sets and fill the hout up with them...
After that ( since IIRC you basically have a dedicated product line) I would suggest buy any sizes that you routinely use in production on an as-needed basis by purchasing at full package quantity and in the particular style that the job dictates.
For instance, while my own kit has copius amounts of spare stub length drills in certain sizes, which are often used for pre-reaming dowel pin holes, ( eliminates the need for center-drilling ) as well as for clearance and tap drill sizes for the 1/4-20 and 10-32...( and usually they brights because I mostly machine aluminum ) it also has quite a few empty spaces--spaces which I see no need to suddenly rush out and buy replacements because they are basically oddballs sizes antways.
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On 3/22/2011 8:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote:

I finally broke down and bought the Enco $100 118 degree set a couple of years ago & am glad I did. They have been ok. Very useful to have the size selection on hand.
MikeB
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They are not accurately sized or ground on center.
All of the cheaper sets tend to drill oversize because of off-center tips, or gall because the metal was not properly tempered, or do so because the rake angles are mis-ground.
LLoyd
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Not that I've noticed in the set I have unless it is by a couple tenths. (HSS, bright, Made in USA.)
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You didn't say what you paid for the set, but if you do any (read that as _ANY_) press fits or shrink fits, you'd notice in a big hurry.
LLoyd
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On 3/22/2011 8:48 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Yes, I said: "bought the Enco $100 118 degree set a couple of years ago"
You may be correct about a press fit. I was taught to drill undersize & ream, I did not know you could drill them directly.
MikeB
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You certainly can't drill directly on large diameters (say, over .25"), but you can with smaller bits and a good, low TIR chuck -- IF the bits are well-sized and properly ground.
I've had multiple sets of both the inexpensive "made in USA" and Chinese 115 bit sets, and ultimately they always dissapoint. FWIW, the usual flaw the the low-cost USA brands is mis-grinding, not Chinalloy hardening or tempering, or under-sized/oversized drill stock. Hell, I've had offshore sets where adjacent sizes in the index were exactly the same size! (AND mis-ground!)
I even followed the (good) advice of "buy cheap, then replace the ones you use with good bits", but inevitably ended up screwing up some expensive work with the _next_ cheap bit I used. So I eventually broke down and sprung for a _really_good_ set, and haven't looked back. (and yeah... I still bugger one up now and then, but I buy the replacements from the same source). Just one messed-up part 60% into the job is justification for the price.
LLoyd
LLoyd
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On 2011-03-23, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

    As for Chinalloy -- I had a set perhaps around 1962 or so of bits from Japan before good tools started coming from there. Butter steel. Terrible -- a set of 1/16" to 1/4" in a little index with a clear plastic front panel in the index.

    The 115 piece bit set which I got, while marked "Made in USA" on the flyer, was over $200.00 perhaps ten years ago or more, and was (and still is) a very good set (from MSC, FWIW).
    Had I known then what I know now, I would have paid extra for the 135 degree split point set. I've got a set of semi "Silver & Deming" fractional bits with split points -- and no shank larger than 3/8" even with the largest bit size being 1/2". Index is painted bright yellow, and I picked them up at a yard sale. Not cheap, but good quality steel and well sharpened. (No, I would not have paid that for a similar set of 118 degree points. :-)
    I've also got a set of cobalt steel number (wire sized) bits in screw machine length with the 135 degree split points. I'm quite pleased with these.

    I tried that with a cheap set of metric bits -- and quickly gave them away after looking at the grind -- and experiencing the index, which was terrible. :-)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Somebody mentioned measuring the hole and then checking the wall chart to see what size drill bit is appropriate... That reminded me of the drill bit calculator we wrote a while ago - measure what you need with your caliper, enter the dimension in the utility and it pops up nearest drill size.
In addition to showing the next larger fractional, letter/number and metric size drill bits corresponding to a decimal value input, plus the next two larger and smaller drills - and the clearance, it now also displays target RPM for a particular drill size,
It defaults to 60 SFPM (a good start for mild steel) and you can tweak the value depending on the material being cut or drilled.
The executable is compressed in "Fractions.zip" and downloadable from <http://www.carlafongphotography.com/utilities/ Shareware, so if it is helpful to you, send us a couple of bucks.
Eventually I should upload it to the dropbox, but as long as I'm updating occasionally it seems best to keep it on my site.
Carla
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