To All:
The title says it all. Do you have any knowledge of examples of a machine shop in modern times using processes, procedures, tooling, etc. that might be considered "outdated" or "obsolete" technology?
Comments:
Not sure about tooling but for sure deburring tools.
I think you should check your ancestry. You often have a very good sense of humor. Since so many Jews are comedians I suspect you have Jewish genes somewhere down the line. ;>)
Next time your going to be in San Diego drop me an e-mail and I'll buy you lunch.... at a Jewish deli. ;P
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Not sure about tooling but for sure deburring tools.
Deburring tools are made in China, some may be shipped to Israel, repacked and resold under made in Israel logo, I think! Keep on worshipping your Israeli made DEBURRING TOOL!
I think you should check your ancestry. You often have a very good sense of humor. Since so many Jews are comedians I suspect you have Jewish genes somewhere down the line. ;>)
You wish!
Next time your going to be in San Diego drop me an e-mail and I'll buy you lunch.... at a Jewish deli. ;P
Yak! Kosher crap!
JS
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
You mean besides old farts like me?
KG
Any shop using Gibbscam to create geometry with.
Any shop using BobCRAP V22 for anything.
Any shop using OneCNC XR2 or XR3 that needs proper support for multiple fixture offsets.
Any shop using a CADCAM system that doesn=92t support user named and defined coordinate systems.
Any shop using SolidWorks to try and do any modifications to a non- native imported solid or who has to modify someone else's design.
Any shop using a vertical machining center and who does multiple setups for parts that get held in a vise and not using something like this:
Any shop who uses edge finders that aren't lapped. Our shop just purchased 6 lapped one from Hermann Schmidt.
Any shop not reading the Jon Banquer blog. ;>)
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Jon's "learning curve" breaks the bank.
When I was 20....the rule was cnc cnc cnc! No matter what! But alas....you know the drill.
So this guy I worked for had a 40 man shop, bought all kinds of cnc and nobody used it. One day at lunch he got the forklift and in 30 minutes took 15 beautiful bridgeports 300 yards to the end of the complex and literally dumped them in a pile in a shed.
That day I finally had a real life hero. Never had one since.
He closed his doors finally last week. The shop I work for now...still has the same junky ass spanish mill they had when I was 18...been running it all week. Not even using carbide. I am 41.
I blame it on letting retards in the trade. they are pushing 70% now.
I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "vinny" wrote on Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:34:20 -0400 in alt.machines.cnc :
Sounds to me like the problems with "5 S". Too often it (5 S, CNC, JIT, MIC KEY MOU SE) is considered a magic bullet which will solve all the shop's problems. Like the guy who brings back the chain saw cause it doesn't work as well as his old misery whip, then asking "whats that noise!" when the sales guy fires it up. So buying a bunch of CNC machines, in and of itself doesn't increase production. Likewise is using them "badly". (Defining "Badly" as bad physical layout - on short runs,every step away from the door is one step closer to the coffee pot - 'bad' fixtures (index for the part is on the left end, but the critical area is on the right end.) and other issues which you really don't recognize until you've worked around the machine a while.)
I think every shop should have the following signs in various places (not just the shop floor)
Only Customers Pay Wages
The company is here to collect my pay from Customers.
Until good parts go out the door, paychecks can't come in the door.
Put it away where it belongs. Just because you don't have time to do so, doesn't mean I have time to look for it. [Of course, this also presumes that "Everything has its place, and every place has its thing."]
-- pyotr filipivich "I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender whether they served zombies he said, ?Sure, what'll you have?'" from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries
Holy shit that's funny! High tech shop you got there!
Any shop using Gibbscam to create geometry with.
Any shop using BobCRAP V22 for anything.
Any shop using OneCNC XR2 or XR3 that needs proper support for multiple fixture offsets.
Any shop using a CADCAM system that doesn=92t support user named and defined coordinate systems.
Any shop using SolidWorks to try and do any modifications to a non- native imported solid or who has to modify someone else's design.
Any shop using a vertical machining center and who does multiple setups for parts that get held in a vise and not using something like this:
Any shop who uses edge finders that aren't lapped. Our shop just purchased 6 lapped one from Hermann Schmidt.
Any shop not reading the Jon Banquer blog. ;>)
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Have you actually seen Gibbscam V9?
Any shop using BobCRAP V22 for anything.
Any shop using OneCNC XR2 or XR3 that needs proper support for multiple fixture offsets.
Any shop using a CADCAM system that doesn?t support user named and defined coordinate systems.
Any shop using SolidWorks to try and do any modifications to a non- native imported solid or who has to modify someone else's design.
Any shop using a vertical machining center and who does multiple setups for parts that get held in a vise and not using something like this:
Any shop who uses edge finders that aren't lapped. Our shop just purchased 6 lapped one from Hermann Schmidt.
Any shop not reading the Jon Banquer blog. ;>)
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Anyone can see what's new in Gibbscam V9
I'm glad I'm using Mastercam X3 instead of Gibbscam V9. Besides Gibbscam Utility Markers and better solid cut part rendering Mastercam X3 is a much more complete and far better CADCAM system. Gibbscam V9, which isn=92t released yet, is still badly behind the times. Gibbscam V9 still puts all your machining operations in just one Tile List making it next to impossible to manage when your machining operations climb. Gibbscam V9 Machining Operations Manager is still really a Machining Operations Viewer. Gibbscam needs a rewrite from the ground up. Its user interface is totally obsolete.
Gibbscam help manuals still suck. Independent help for Gibbscam continues to dry up and fade away. Texas Offline no longer offers their Gibbscam Virtual CD Training. When they did offer it, it was badly out of date.
The only good news is that Gibbscam has apparently just started doing free on-line training. See their heavily censored and moderated web board.
A few months ago Gibbscam employees banned long time user "Rocko" from stating the truth about their maintenance fees.
"Yes, I know they have deleted 3 of my postings even mentioning the increase on the maintenance. I think my days of dealing with Gibbs are coming to an end. Hell I paid for maintenance for over 5 years and they never changed the Solid Surfacer Module till a beta this month. Even then they are still behind others for mold work. I think them getting bought out is going to make prices go up. Wow just checked they (Gibbs)banned me from the message board that I pay to belong too? It states on the screen For Reason: None Given. I guess they must be a tad sensitive about how much they are increasing the maintenance fees."
Here is what "Rocko" posted about Gibbscam to CNC Advertising Zone to Jason Heyse owner of Texas Offline a Gibbscam reseller:
"Funny you mention that, it went up almost quite a bit and for what? There is no reason for it going up at all. They have been lazy on doing anything new with their 3d toolpath generation for over 4+ years. Also if you think during these economic times people are going to sit around and get porked on ever increasing maintenance charges you are wrong. I have received nothing for all the maintenance that I have paid in over 4 years. Hell they do not even get back to you on problems you find with the software. Also it seems you are new here Jason, perhaps a Gibbs employee or a VAR trying to quell the truth? I would like you to deny that the Solid Surfacer module (3axis) has been updated in 4+ years. You and I both know they havent touched it."
It's time for Cimatron to retire Bill Gibbs and remove him from having anything to do with Gibbscam's development.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Anyone can see what's new in Gibbscam V9
I'm glad I'm using Mastercam X3 instead of Gibbscam V9. Besides Gibbscam Utility Markers and better solid cut part rendering Mastercam X3 is a much more complete and far better CADCAM system. Gibbscam V9, which isn=92t released yet, is still badly behind the times. Gibbscam V9 still puts all your machining operations in just one Tile List making it next to impossible to manage when your machining operations climb. Gibbscam V9 Machining Operations Manager is still really a Machining Operations Viewer. Gibbscam needs a rewrite from the ground up. Its user interface is totally obsolete.
Gibbscam help manuals still suck. Independent help for Gibbscam continues to dry up and fade away. Texas Offline no longer offers their Gibbscam Virtual CD Training. When they did offer it, it was badly out of date.
The only good news is that Gibbscam has apparently just started doing free on-line training. See their heavily censored and moderated web board.
A few months ago Gibbscam employees banned long time user "Rocko" from stating the truth about their maintenance fees.
"Yes, I know they have deleted 3 of my postings even mentioning the increase on the maintenance. I think my days of dealing with Gibbs are coming to an end. Hell I paid for maintenance for over 5 years and they never changed the Solid Surfacer Module till a beta this month. Even then they are still behind others for mold work. I think them getting bought out is going to make prices go up. Wow just checked they (Gibbs)banned me from the message board that I pay to belong too? It states on the screen For Reason: None Given. I guess they must be a tad sensitive about how much they are increasing the maintenance fees."
Here is what "Rocko" posted about Gibbscam to CNC Advertising Zone to Jason Heyse owner of Texas Offline a Gibbscam reseller:
"Funny you mention that, it went up almost quite a bit and for what? There is no reason for it going up at all. They have been lazy on doing anything new with their 3d toolpath generation for over 4+ years. Also if you think during these economic times people are going to sit around and get porked on ever increasing maintenance charges you are wrong. I have received nothing for all the maintenance that I have paid in over 4 years. Hell they do not even get back to you on problems you find with the software. Also it seems you are new here Jason, perhaps a Gibbs employee or a VAR trying to quell the truth? I would like you to deny that the Solid Surfacer module (3axis) has been updated in 4+ years. You and I both know they havent touched it."
It's time for Cimatron to retire Bill Gibbs and remove him from having anything to do with Gibbscam's development.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Aren't you being a little hypocritical there Jon?
[It's moderated. If it's the kind of lie or bullshit that is often posted by scumbags you and your shop do business (John Carroll) I don't permit it to be see the light of day on my blog. ] - Jon Banquer-
Jon Banquer comments posted to his blog, four however we don't know it they are real since Jon has a habit of forging comments and posting them to blog's under false names.
[ UPDATE -- July 8, 2007 -- I had to close this blog post to further comments and to remove the personal attacks between Jon and some other newsgroups readers. Before the interview, I made an agreement with Jon about the style of the interview and the way to handle it. Jon didn't respect our agreement, posting comments under fake names. Jon's authentic and fake comments are all posted from the same IP address, 72.199.251.224. I can now see that my trust in Jon was misplaced.]
Anyone can see what's new in Gibbscam V9
I'm glad I'm using Mastercam X3 instead of Gibbscam V9. Besides Gibbscam Utility Markers and better solid cut part rendering Mastercam X3 is a much more complete and far better CADCAM system. Gibbscam V9, which isn=92t released yet, is still badly behind the times. Gibbscam V9 still puts all your machining operations in just one Tile List making it next to impossible to manage when your machining operations climb. Gibbscam V9 Machining Operations Manager is still really a Machining Operations Viewer. Gibbscam needs a rewrite from the ground up. Its user interface is totally obsolete.
Gibbscam help manuals still suck. Independent help for Gibbscam continues to dry up and fade away. Texas Offline no longer offers their Gibbscam Virtual CD Training. When they did offer it, it was badly out of date.
The only good news is that Gibbscam has apparently just started doing free on-line training. See their heavily censored and moderated web board.
A few months ago Gibbscam employees banned long time user "Rocko" from stating the truth about their maintenance fees.
"Yes, I know they have deleted 3 of my postings even mentioning the increase on the maintenance. I think my days of dealing with Gibbs are coming to an end. Hell I paid for maintenance for over 5 years and they never changed the Solid Surfacer Module till a beta this month. Even then they are still behind others for mold work. I think them getting bought out is going to make prices go up. Wow just checked they (Gibbs)banned me from the message board that I pay to belong too? It states on the screen For Reason: None Given. I guess they must be a tad sensitive about how much they are increasing the maintenance fees."
Here is what "Rocko" posted about Gibbscam to CNC Advertising Zone to Jason Heyse owner of Texas Offline a Gibbscam reseller:
"Funny you mention that, it went up almost quite a bit and for what? There is no reason for it going up at all. They have been lazy on doing anything new with their 3d toolpath generation for over 4+ years. Also if you think during these economic times people are going to sit around and get porked on ever increasing maintenance charges you are wrong. I have received nothing for all the maintenance that I have paid in over 4 years. Hell they do not even get back to you on problems you find with the software. Also it seems you are new here Jason, perhaps a Gibbs employee or a VAR trying to quell the truth? I would like you to deny that the Solid Surfacer module (3axis) has been updated in 4+ years. You and I both know they havent touched it."
It's time for Cimatron to retire Bill Gibbs and remove him from having anything to do with Gibbscam's development.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Kirk:
Hey, haven't seen any posts by you lately. I miss your informative chronicles, even if they were textbook length.
well bob,you've got , cost appreciations, learning curves, market depletion, reduced profit margins, and topping the list at our shop, losing customers to China. four last month alone! how can any shop owner warrant spending a coupla houndred thou, if they dont know if this trend of offshore globalizaton crap will ever stop. Ya, we got a couple of machines 50 years old and still working in tolerance. Don't make em like they used too.
Ed:
What exactly do you guys make or do?
We've lost a few customers to overseas competition, but since we're mainly a prototype job shop, that tends to insulate us from the outsourcing game, as the customers are mainly looking for a fast turnaround. THEN they send the production to China, India, wherever.
I wouldn't think that machine shop startup companies (other than garage shops), are real popular right now.
We've got some Bridgeports that are up there in years. But the kind of machines/tooling/process I had in mind were REALLY old. Like a shop regularly using a manual hand drill (see below), for drilling steel.
Great for chamfering small holes on a large part when you don't have hole locations. I think it's at least 60 years old.
I have something similar I got from a mold maker some years ago. He'd taken a 1/2" drive speed wrench and threaded the end for a drill chuck. Very easy to get consistent chamfers. I also have a cheapo Fiskars plastic hand crank drill, I adapted a quality 3/8 drill chuck to. Faster and lighter than the speedwrench, it also works very well.
Before these two, I also used a bit brace of similar vintage.
Jon (the other one)
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