messing with the power connection

This is an amazing device:
http://www.wiebetech.com/products/HotPlug.php

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| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

So how long have you worked for that company?
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| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |> This is an amazing device: |> |> http://www.wiebetech.com/products/HotPlug.php |> | | | So how long have you worked for that company?
Never have. I'm actually trying to figure out ways to defeat it.
1. Use a 240 volt circuit. The 240 volt version might not be in the USA. 2. Use 48 volt DC to the PSU. They don't even make that. 3. Use a power strip plug that shorts itself while not inserted. 4. Configure the whole disk encryption to timeout regardless of activity.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

There is a *very* much easier way to defeat it. However, bearing in mind that its use is as a forensic tool for law enforcement - such discussions really aren't in the public interest.
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I rather suspect that on an accessible website like this, that it's aimed at a somewhat less respectable clientel!
I'm sure law enforcement agencies already have their own methods of dealing with things.
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Stuart Winsor

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| |> There is a *very* much easier way to defeat it. However, bearing in mind |> that its use is as a forensic tool for law enforcement - such |> discussions really aren't in the public interest. | | I rather suspect that on an accessible website like this, that it's aimed | at a somewhat less respectable clientel! | | I'm sure law enforcement agencies already have their own methods of | dealing with things.
A lot do, I am sure. Most probably would be baffled by a device like this. Those same LEAs would probably boot up a computer they take back to the lab instead of imaging the HD(s). I wouldn't be surprised if they leave the external HD(s) at the scene. And worse, they might even re-install if the computer is infected.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

The local Sheriff's department would leave your sorry ass in the dust, then. Not only are they computer experts, but they have a nice electronics lab to build things they can't find on the market. Whenever there is suspected cyber crime, or a computer found when a warrant is served, the regular deputies do not touch them. The experts are called in, and take over the investigation, until their part is done.
Barney Fife might be your local Sheriff, but those clowns are rapidly disappearing.
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On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:10:07 -0500 Michael A. Terrell
| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |>
wrote:
|> | |> |> There is a *very* much easier way to defeat it. However, bearing in mind |> |> that its use is as a forensic tool for law enforcement - such |> |> discussions really aren't in the public interest. |> | |> | I rather suspect that on an accessible website like this, that it's aimed |> | at a somewhat less respectable clientel! |> | |> | I'm sure law enforcement agencies already have their own methods of |> | dealing with things. |> |> A lot do, I am sure. Most probably would be baffled by a device like this. |> Those same LEAs would probably boot up a computer they take back to the lab |> instead of imaging the HD(s). I wouldn't be surprised if they leave the |> external HD(s) at the scene. And worse, they might even re-install if the |> computer is infected. | | | The local Sheriff's department would leave your sorry ass in the | dust, then. Not only are they computer experts, but they have a nice | electronics lab to build things they can't find on the market. Whenever | there is suspected cyber crime, or a computer found when a warrant is | served, the regular deputies do not touch them. The experts are called | in, and take over the investigation, until their part is done.
Sure, there are a lot of departments that do have their act together. The sad fact is, most don't. And it isn't because they have Barney on the ranks. It's just that they are not prepared for anything unusual. They don't have these experts to call on. They just have a couple of officers in the ranks that really do know how to use computers, as long as they are Windows. They even know how to image a drive. But that's the end of it.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

It must be really backward on your world. Do your cops still ride horses and hang people in the public square for spitting on the street?
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On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 03:47:39 -0500 Michael A. Terrell
| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |> |> Sure, there are a lot of departments that do have their act together. |> The sad fact is, most don't. And it isn't because they have Barney on |> the ranks. It's just that they are not prepared for anything unusual. |> They don't have these experts to call on. They just have a couple of |> officers in the ranks that really do know how to use computers, as long |> as they are Windows. They even know how to image a drive. But that's |> the end of it. | | | It must be really backward on your world. Do your cops still ride | horses and hang people in the public square for spitting on the street?
You sure do seem to have a narrow range of experience. Maybe you should out sometime and see the world. Things really are more modern than you seem to grasp. They just aren't as diverse at all technologies in all the places. That's not necessarily the fault of the LEAs/LEOs ... it's just the way the world is. When you are dealing with small towns with maybe 20 to 30 LEOs on staff, and small budgets, there is no luxury of having experts in all technologies available.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Are you trying to tell us something, or is it that you can't string together enough words to form a coherent sentence?
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| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|> |> This is an amazing device: |> |> |> |> http://www.wiebetech.com/products/HotPlug.php |> |> |> | |> | |> | So how long have you worked for that company? |> |> Never have. I'm actually trying to figure out ways to defeat it. |> |> 1. Use a 240 volt circuit. The 240 volt version might not be in the USA. |> 2. Use 48 volt DC to the PSU. They don't even make that. |> 3. Use a power strip plug that shorts itself while not inserted. |> 4. Configure the whole disk encryption to timeout regardless of activity. |> | | | There is a *very* much easier way to defeat it. However, bearing in mind | that its use is as a forensic tool for law enforcement - such | discussions really aren't in the public interest.
I disagree. Such tools can also be abused, and might be in the near future.
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Palindrome wrote:

At least two very easy ones come to my mind. Not only don't you want the criminals to know, but you don't want hotplug to enhance their product to accomodate those. I am not convinced that law enforcement is their target market. If it was, it would be marketed through more confidential channels. Anyone can order it from their web site, and then use it on your computer for whatever reason they have.
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Ben Miller wrote:

I must admit to being rather shocked ( ;) ) that it *could* be marketed. ICBW, but I very much doubt that such a product could be sold to anyone, through "confidential channels" or not, in the UK. It is just an accident waiting to happen.
It isn't even a very bright idea, from the computing viewpoint. Transporting *spinning* hard disks. Not exactly the best way of protecting irreplaceable data - hitting the machine with a fire axe would quite possibly be safer.
Even the "mouse jiggler" concept is flawed. But I suspect that you can think of at least two flaws yourself, without me mentioning them!
I wonder what the guy is going to invent next? Roller skates for seeing eye dogs?
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IBM did studies on this for the army in the early 90s. It turns out spinning hard drives are not really much more in danger than drives at rest. There are lots of older MP3 players that use mini drives and the army/marines have hardened laptops that they carry around in combat. The drives are pretty much "off the shelf" items.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

From the data sheet of a typical desktop machine hard disk:
http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datasheet/disc/ds_barracuda_7200_11.pdf
Shock (Gs) Operating: 63 Nonoperating: 300
I'd not call the difference between them "not really much more".
I've written off the odd hard disk by careless handling whilst it was running - in each case a powered-off drive would have survived, I'm sure. YMMV.
Of course some modern laptop drives have become very sophisticated and include g sensors that rapidly park and lock the heads. Producing a suitably school marmy comment on the screen, having done so. I'm not aware of any desktop machine drive that has such protection..
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IBM lightning drives must be tougher than Seagates (they turn slower and had a smaller capacity, bigger head surface) but even 63Gs is a pretty good hit. The test was really whether the drive, as installed in a machine, would tolerate a lot of rough handling, as was the original question here. It is safe to say if you were holding that drive or riding in the vehicle it was mounted to and took a 63G hit it would be academic to your heirs whether the drive survived.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Simply letting the machine topple sideways onto a hard surface can easily generate more than 63G in the hard drive. Bumping it into a doorway whilst carrying it, likewise. Very short duration G forces rise dramatically when even a slow moving "incompressible" body impacts on an "incompressible" surface. 63G under such circumstances is easily achieved. A drive travelling at just 1 metre per second, deforming elastically less than 1mm on impact with an incompressible surface, suffers a G force of around 50G..for around 2mSec.
Unless I had been first immersed in liquid helium, falling a foot or so or bumping into a doorway isn't going to result in me receiving such G forces. I am, fortunately, relatively good at absorbing impact by deformation, in the unfrozen state.
It is safe to say that, if I was holding that drive in the car and the vehicle hit another at 15 mph - I would be safe and well behind my air bag and restrained by my seat belt. The drive, having gone through the window and hit the ground, would be decidedly unwell.
-- Sue
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I moved spinning machines around all the time and never had these problems so I am sure a fairly careful guy could take one across the country. I have a regular PC in my car and it has banged around the trunk a number of times, not even skipping the MP3 that was playing. Hard drives and PCs in general are a lot tougher than people think. I imagine a person who is really interested enough in saving this data will have some kind of ventilated, padded case to carry the system unit in. Just being in a case tends to dampen shocks.
BTW I did take a look at a lightning drive and the HDA is shock mounted in the drive housing so that may have something to do with the rating. It may be apples and oranges compared to the cheap industry drives we have today.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

The last line says it all. Add a 10mmm "crumple zone" around a drive, so that it can decellerate over a distance of even just a few mm, rather than a fraction of 1mm - and the G forces plummet.
Risk is as much about the consequences of getting it wrong as it is about the chances of that happening. Transporting a running drive full of irreplaceable data (eg forensic computer evidence) is riskier than transporting a parked drive and that risk can generally be avoided.

My (old) Tufbook has a drive that is suspended in the middle of stuff that feels like jelly (gelatin). So it can move several tens of mm, should the need arise.
It certainly survived dropping off the roof of the car (onto grass) when I drove off, forgetting that I hadn't put it in the car yet.. No, it wsn't running at the time.. It now has a different life, running 24x7 as an email server.
My (new) Tufbook has a silicon rubber sleeve around the drive, maybe 1/20th the thickness of the "jelly" in the old one. It, supposedly, can take a great deal of rough handling too...
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