Bumping

Hello Erik,

This topic has been discussed here recently, I recommend reading the older threads :-)

The lock is not broken, any more than tires that use air can still get flat. Standard pin tumbler locks are a basic preventive security measure, making/using bump keys to defeat them involves forethought and clear intent.

Regards, David

and actually high security locks can EASILY be gotten thru to-thanks to most builders.. alarm systems? that costs MONEY...

--Shiva--

Yes, the internet/newsgroups have been discussing this for a while now. I am aware of that. I was just pointing out that an industry magazine is finally starting to write about it. I never actually tell anyone that their lock is broken. I just explain that it is now starting to be considered older security. With that, its many vulnerabilities have become known to the people in the profession as well as the public. As mentioned too, yes high security locks can be bumped. Some are much more resistant, but the principle is the same. Coded locks are usually my recommendation along with recommending changing the code on a consistent basis. I guess these will eventually be susceptible to some sort of hacking. Alarms, well yes they cost money. Nowadays however, for anyone seriously interested in security, you can't simply rely on the entry points to stop an intruder. A lock is only as good as the door frame the door lock is on. I don't know the stats, but I have seen quite a few forced entry where the lock held up great, but the frame was completely split open. If an alarm had been installed (and done properly i.e. not leaving the brain next to the front door), the intruder would be subject to roughly 30 seconds of snatch and grab.

No just defective. Broken implies that the problem happened post manfacture.

Tires are sold with the understanding that they are vulnerable to flats. It's common knowledge. If lock manufacturers were to put a disclaimer on their products stating that they can be bumped open in seconds with a slightly modified key blank by the average 12 year old so that the public is as aware of the problem as they are of the possibility of a flat this analogy might hold up.

What it involves is an easily available tool that can be effectively made and used by a 12 year old to render a lock completely useless.

"Finally" sounds a bit critical. Keep in mind it's only been a well known flaw for 50 years or more. The lock and locksmithing industries were busy doing other things in those 50 years, like selling more defective product..............

I never actually tell anyone that their

Just expalin to them that there lock is defective and bump it open. They won't argue with you.

I just explain that it is now starting to be considered

Not necessarily in that order.

As mentioned too, yes

You are wasting your time using logical thought on this forum. Locksmiths in general are convinced that anyone who discusses bumping is the devil and that bumping is said devils fault irregardless of the fact that their industry designs, sells, and installs the defective locks which make bumping possible and has ignored the bumping vulnerability for decades. Nope not their fault. It's the messengers fault for saying there's a problem, it's the damn consumers fault for being so cheap, it's the builders and according to one brain surgeon the architechts fault but not the locksmiths fault. Hillarious isn't it.

Not when going away from standard pin tumbler locks.

Mechanical locks more and more become a organisation tool, not giving any security at all.

Locks that IMO cannot be bumped:

1. Medeco (both the cam type and conventional cylinder type).
2. Bi-Lock
3. Lever locks such as Chubb, Legge, Union, ERA, old payphone types, safes, safe deposit boxes, etc, etc, etc (admittedly cheap 2 lever locks may yield to jiggle keys).
4. Bramah
5. Pin tumbler locks where secondary locking mechanisms are not effectively 'keyed alike'.
6. Emhart (with angled cuts - now obsolete)
7. Decent wafer locks (modern automotive, Bell, etc).

1. Abloy and the like
2. Evva MCS and 3KS

Worth noting, that in addition to wafer locks, we have GM and late model Ford sidebar. I'd expect them to be bump proof.

Wonder if Sargent Keso is bump proof? The dimple keys.

Bell (like they use on lockers at the airport) should fall under wafer type.

Locks that IMO cannot be bumped:

1. Medeco (both the cam type and conventional cylinder type).
2. Bi-Lock
3. Lever locks such as Chubb, Legge, Union, ERA, old payphone types, safes, safe deposit boxes, etc, etc, etc (admittedly cheap 2 lever locks may yield to jiggle keys).
4. Bramah
5. Pin tumbler locks where secondary locking mechanisms are not effectively 'keyed alike'.
6. Emhart (with angled cuts - now obsolete)
7. Decent wafer locks (modern automotive, Bell, etc).

Oops - I forgot that.

I don't know them, but some of these European cylinders seem pretty awesome.

Agreed.

mmmm. At the end of the day these are conventional pin tumbler cylinders, but making a bump key would require access to a a dimple key cutter, or possibly computer controlled toolmaking machinery if a different geometry is needed to put more force on the pins.

Agreed (I assume this is the type with a wavy groove) I remember seeing pay lockers that had a key that looked like a normal pin tumbler and tubular key combined - these would also seem bump proof.

One type I cannot make my mind up on are tubular keys.

My guess, and it's only a guess is that it is technically possible to bump a tubular, as it's just a variant of the pin tumbler, but you would need to bump it many times, once for each pin.

I think you could transfer the momentum to the bottom pins via the top-pins, whether the tool would be more of a bump-key or a pick-gun though I don't know.

I would therefore guess technically possible, but requires more skill, time, and tools than impressioning it.

I thought of another way, but I did not feel I should describe it. Suffice to say that it would be a bit of a work of art and not just filing down an existing key.

believe some can..

fyi, ANOTHER interesting LAW..

US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance'' to Leave/Enter the USA October 26, 2006 (excerpt) Original: Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) published into the Federal Register 40035-4004 July 14, 2006 and also at the Regulatory Assessment published July 18, 2006 Posted at:

and docked as USCBP-2005-0003-0005. The proposed rule change requires an: 'ex post facto, (before the fact) notice to the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP) about who is on each vessel (departing of seeking entry into the country), creating a system of prior restraint for international travel. Beginning on Jan. 14, 2007, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that: 'all airlines, cruise lines, and Fishing Boats be required to obtain clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the United States.' It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport, which now, (absent a court order to the contrary), gives you a virtually unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the agency says "NO" to a Clearance Request, or doesn't answer the request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United States. Why might the HSA deny you permission to leave-or enter-the United States? No one knows, because the entire clearance procedure would be an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of appeal. Naturally, the decision would be made without a warrant, without probable cause and without even any particular degree of suspicion. The U.S. Supreme Court has long recognized there is a constitutional right to travel internationally. Indeed, it has declared that the right to travel is "a virtually unconditional personal right." The United States has also signed treaties guaranteeing "freedom of travel." So if these regulations do go into effect, you can expect a lengthy court battle, both nationally and internationally. Think this can't happen? Think again. It's ALREADY happening. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are two countries in recent history that didn't allow their citizens to travel abroad without permission. If these regulations go into effect, you can add the United States to this list.

--Shiva--

Last time I hace read this document it only referred to different pin tumbler locks being affected by bumping. I will go through it this evening, maybe there are some new facts.