It Takes A Thief DSC

I'm sure most of you are familiar with the T.V. show on the Discovery channel called 'It Takes A Thief.' For those of you who are not, basically two guys go around and find good target houses to break in to and then ask the home owners for permission. The gimmick is the home owners get a security renovation after they get their house tore up. I am simply looking to start up a discussion on what the community thinks about the show. Half of the people say that it is horrible that they are educating people on how to burglarize homes, and the other half say that breaking a window and going into someone's house it not a secret. Pros and Cons. Otherwise is serves as all other t.v. shows do as just entertaining. What do you out there think?

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The premise of the show is obviously a good one. People with motivation to break into things devote their efforts to learning how to break into things. (Duh). The only people in the dark were the people who were likely to become victims. To argue to the contrary is to argue that ignorance is beneficial bliss. This is true with regard to all the attacks on physical security the logically challenged security by obscurity obsessed, so called security professionals demand be kept a deep dark secret, as though there is anyway to do this, or to measure the relative degree of success or failure in attempting to do it, anyway

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Tim Mathews

Another crock of s**te from Tim Mathews........... Let's tell everyone where Mathew lives and then we can make a show about the cracks in Mathews security. The only dark secret, according to Tim revolves around other people... I'd bet my house that Timmy here doesn't have Abloy or some other bump resistant locks on his doors...... Give me permission and 5 minutes and I'd be in...... Better yet, let's show it all on the INTERNET.

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I like the show-when I have time to watch it. It is amazing how complacent and careless some homeowners are.

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A "crock of s**te" we both know you will be completely unable to refute in any way shape or form..

Let's tell everyone

I guess I could point out here how this is a totally irrelevant argument since I haven't posted anyone's address or anything like that but what would be the point? Proponents of security by obscurity have nothing but illogical irrelevant arguments.

Also I realize being logically challenged in the extrreme you may not realize this but first you would have to figure it out although you would have an advantage there I suppose since I actually give a name rather than some simple minded alias like for example rifnraf.

The only dark secret, according to Tim revolves around other

No the only dark secret according to Tim is that the information people like you think is secret is only a secret in your own rather deluded minds. If it were any kind of secret we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?

. I'd bet my house

Does it still have the wheels on it or would I have to put them back on to haul it away?

that Timmy here doesn't have Abloy or some other

ASSA. I already posted that in response to another posters largely irrelevant question. Being completely unable to refute anything I said he was smart enough to just let the matter drop. Better to simply let me appear to be right than to debate it, lose, and remove all doubt. An intelligent man to be sure.

..... Give me permission and 5 minutes

In 5 minutes a drunk with a brick can get in 90% of the houses in America. Other than that a drunk with a brick can break into most houses in 5 minutes what does that prove? Of course all intelligent people realize this so about

30 seconds after getting in the drunk has a screaming alarm to deal with and about 2 minutes after that he has the police coming down on him. Before they get there the home owner may or may not shoot him as the case may be.

...... Better yet, let's show it all on the INTERNET.

Then you would have to find somebody to show you how to set up the video.

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Tim Mathews

lolol.. FUNNY THING ABOUT INSURANCE.. sometimes they do NOT pay, due to circumstances..

car stolen, car recovered, totally trashed but NO damage to the lock mechanism.. insurance did NOT pay for the damage..

we had a house here in my town 'burglars broke in' set the house on fire... and the insurance did NOT pay on the house.. Fire marshall said the fire was 'questionable origin. (PLUS, no evidence of a break in, either) and at that point the insurance was NOT liable..

so, if the 'house got bumped,' the odds could be that they CANNOT get reimbursement on theft of articles --Shiva--

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Timmy..... Timmy..... I was bumping locks while you were still wetting the bed. You really don't have a clue about locks or locksmithing. I've been getting paid for many years to open locks without keys. From snap-guns, pickguns, picks, computer generated picks, shimming and bumpkeys. For every lock, there has been a tool or method to open it without a key. That's what locksmithing has been about for over a hundred years. I can manipulate a 3 or 4 wheel combination lock open on most good days. I open people's cars and houses every day of the week. YOu think you're crash hot now because your friend Tobias has tried to put it all out on the Web and you're practising at home??? There's no conspiracy about locks.... You get what you pay for. Would I like to fit a Medico, Abbloy, ASSA or something in the hundreds of dollars?? of course I would!!. The reality is this: Most people are not going to spend the money it will take to get a good lock that is primarily pickproof. Not for a long time. How do you justify Tobias showing anyone with a computer, how to open their neighbors house????????????????????? As long as a house has a roof and or windows, pickproof locks won't make much of a difference anyway. People, where I live, have not yet decided to design their homes like a prison........ nor should they have too. Timmy.... take a moment and consider those milllions that all this will effect in the long run. I'm guessing that you really don't care.

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The fact that you were a bed wetter and suffer lingering psychological trauma from it is irrelevant.

This from a member of an industry that's been selling defective crap for over 75 years. To do this you have to be dishonest or incompetent. Which are you?

I've been

LOL You fell for that "computer generated" pick crap??? BWAHAHAHAHAHA the only people that buy those are people who don't know how to actually pick.

For every

Yeah, unfortunately usually one that can be quickly mastered by a 10 year old.

That's what

Designing defective crap and then taking advantage of the defects to open it?

I can manipulate a 3

Again you and many ten year olds with a bobby pin. (You don't think your actually helping the lock industry look less crooked or incompetent here do you?).

YOu think you're crash hot now because your

Your showing you general ignorance again. Bumping was well known to anyone with even a passing interest long before there was a web, or even an internet for that matter. Consumers and many so called 'locksmiths' seem to be the only one's that were in the dark on it.

Of course you don't tell your customers that and there in lies the problem. If you were to tell your customers that the piece of crap you are about to sell them can be opened with a bump key faster than they can open it with their key there wouldn't be a problem but we all know you don't tell them that and you scream bloody murder when anyone else does.

I don't need to justify it. He wouldn't be able to do it if the locks weren't CRAP with a big capitol C R A P. How do you justify being part of an industry for 28 years that knowingly sells such utter garbage? I'll ask the question agian, although we both know you will just dodge it again: How do you justify being part of an industry that sells such utterly DEFECTIVE GARBAGE for 28 years? That's right you don't. You are too in denial to even address the question. All you can do is cry and whine about anybody who won't help you cover it up.


Then somebody would have to be a real nut to get so worked up over bumping to make a statement like: "How do you justify Tobias showing anyone

or most of the other idiocy you have uttered wouldn't they?.You just said the locks in effect are trivial. That being the case who cares if a bumping documentary airs 24/7 on network TV? You discredit your own statements time and again with the very next words you utter. It's pretty comical really.

People, where I live, have not yet decided to

Nor should they have to rely on defective products sold to them by wanna be security professionals who don't know anything about real security.

If you want to lay a guilt trip look in the mirror. I didn't design nor sell the DEFECTIVE locks. Neither did Marc Tobias. Matt Blaze didn't design the halfwitt masterkey systems he blew the whistle on either. YOU AND YOUR INDUSTRY DID. Deep down I suspect you know how incompetent and or unethical you are and that's what really bothers you. And again I thought: "As

you claim why are you so upset? You can't have it both ways. Well, I suppose you can, you are too devoid of logical thought to even realize the contradiction.

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Tim Mathews

They can when bumping of the lock is demonstrated to the insurance investigators and if need be a jury. This is going to be the type of case that costs some lock company, locksmith, or both A LOT OF MONEY.

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Tim Mathews

you ARE assuming that a locksmith does actually INSTALL and SELL house locks? I dont, and almost all the shops within 25 miles of me dont either.. there is NO money in doing so.. I got a call today from a builder, they lost the keys to a new house, SOLD IT last Friday to the owners, but no keys.. needed me to make a key to the existing locks.. do NOT repin them, do NOT check anything else, just take A lock and make a key..

gotta LOVE the builders, talk about SCREWING folks.. $200k house.. the door knobs and dead bolts cost UNDER $10 each.. you DONT need a key, just a strong grip and twist it right out of the door, and HOPE you dont break the cheap door DOING SO...lolol OH, the owner is rather ticked too, she doesnt have a key to her mail box EITHER.. that was lost as well..and the mail is piling up.. builder can replace that entire box..its not worth the time TO fit a key, even tho its a 'fancy' cast free standing single box unit.. its a $2 lock..RETAIL. but he probably paid a hundred for it.

LOVE new house REQUIRED warranties.. its on the builder to fix all.... and DO go talk to the insurance UNDERWRITERS, get THEIR opinion.. have fun.. NOT the stupid insurance AGENT-they are just crooks AND rather ignorant.


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I hope you can follow the instructions I sent you in reply to your email you sent me. Make sure that you have both hands free at the time or you might get confused.

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You are doing a better job making his points than he is. Quit while he's ahead.

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I don't know what he was assuming but your area is an exception. In most areas there are plenty of guys doing residential work.

They don't build em like they use to. I remember after one of the FL hurricanes seeing shots from the air of the damage. One neighborhood of obviously older houses 40's 50's had minor damage. Shingles torn off. The occaisional porch damaged, that sorta thing. The nighborhood right next door, the new houses with the particle board rooves was almost totally demolished. Pieces of houses laying everywhere. Not much doubt about which ones were quality built. They are using particle board for new house floors now, rots if you look at it wrong.

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As he slinks away tail between his legs "rifnraf">

Right.... which is why you have utterly failed to refute anything I've said or defend your industries sale of DEFECTIVE PRODUCTS in any way.

I'll leave now and go back

LOL Wanna bet? Most of your so called secure forums are about as secure as the locks you sell.

and I'm sure you don't work in any security related industry.

ROFLOL nobody would agree with you so now it's the whole group that has a problem huh? Ah your delusions run deep.



Reply to
Tim Mathews

If you sent email to a domain called you have more problems than I thought. Fact is you are way over your head, the guy kind of slapped you around like a rag doll, it's embarrassing to watch, so once more, pretty please with sugar on top, just quit while he's ahead. Example: He points out what in fact, in many cases, are legitimate security problems and hammers on the fact that the manufacturers really haven't addressed them like they should. What do you do? Brag about how many things you can open or get into. Yeah that's real bright. You are arguing his case for him and don't even know it. Like I said embarassing. Whether or not the flaws should be published is really totally irrelevant. The first question a logical person asks is: Can the publishing of such information be stopped? The answer is a resounding NO, so at this point the question of whether or not it should be is essentially moot. It's nothing but an academic argument.

You could have pointed out real low cost solutions to the problem, like for example, the quick and easy installation of deadbolts which are blind on the outside or, if you don't have those that will easily work in a residential apliacation just disable the outside cylinder. Unless used in combination with a high security lock on the main egress it won't stop bump keying when nobody is home but it will stop somebody who's motive is more sinister than simple burglary from bumping when people are home. And make no mistake people like this are the real danger when it comes to bumping. Property can be replaced. Lives can't be. There are a lot of pinning tricks that will make it harder too but this simple approach makes it impossible, you can't bump a lock that won't operate or has no key hole, you can't pick it either. Used all the time in commercial applications, no reason it can't be used in residential.

Example: House has 4 doors. People can't afford 4 (or 8) high security locks. Put high security lock on one, the primary egress, put, or convert existing cheap dead bolts on the others which are blind outside or have a hardened steel pin passed through one or a few pin chambers (now drilling in the normal manner is a PITA too), scrap drill bit will work just fine, people home or not, bumping problem solved for as little as 25% of the cost of high security on all doors. Virtually any existing lock can be disabled in this way faster than you can conventionally pin it. Yeah they can still kick in a door or break a window BUT that makes noise. Personally if somebody breaks in my house I want them to be forced to make as much noise as possible.

Another thing if I were you I wouldn't go antagonizing him about other forums. Some of them have substantial vulnerabilities. A buddy of mine doing his own informal survey just for s**ts and giggles found the user:pass locksmith:locksmith in use on not one but TWO of them, sorry wannabe hackers and script kiddies they have since been changed. Here's what's gonna happen: You antagonize him, he scams or hacks his way on and in the former case waits until there are enough other new memberships that it's not obvious who is leaking, and then starts reposting content from the "secure" forums here, maybe through a more anonymous NNTP host, maybe not because he just doesn't give a shit. Now what? The forum has to either ignore the leak or suspend and recheck numerous (maybe every damn one of them) memberships in a more secure way which will make you real popular there, assuming the other members know what's going on and who ran his mouth to get the ball rolling.

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