more on computerized voting

I just saw this on a mailing list and thought is was relevant to our discussion: Russian dictator Joseph Stalin once said: "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."

Who needs to vote anyway. In California our benevolent dictator has just pulled a few strings and cancelled the election.

heard that on the NPR, seems the 'chad system' is not good enough now, so they 'postponed it, till next March?

--Shiva--

Here in OZ, it's compulsory to vote at all government elections. If you don't have a damn good excuse (coma or half dead) then you get fined quite heavily. Can't understand the USA way of 'vote if ya feel like it' method. You get who you vote for, and if you don't vote at all, well ........... look who you've got running the joint now. "Say no more and pass the peanuts".

They force you to vote? Does not sound like freedom to me!

Ha ha, I just knew some poor misguided soul would reply with this exact sentence. Come on Ed, wake up. Are you free 'not' to pay tax on your income if you don't feel like it? Do they make you follow Federal, State and local government laws and regulations? Do they force you to have a drivers licence and register and insure your vehicle? Are you free to do just whatever you feel like? _NOT_ ! Fairdinkum mate, anyone who can't be bothered to get off their arse and go vote for someone they think is at least halfway decent to run their country, deserves to get fools & idiots running the show. Just have a look at the jokers you've got bleeding your country dry at the moment. How many trillions of 'your' tax dollars are pouring out of the country every year, yet there are millions of poor & homeless folkes living on the streets, not to mention, ... you guys actually have to _'pay'_ to go to a doctor or to go into hospital for an operation etc, oh my God, how 'third world' is that. Here medical is " FREE". In a civilised world freedom is defined in many different ways, and not always as American ideas dictate. Cheers. :-)

Full ACK!! I have been waiting for such a reply, too *g* If anyone complains about our government I ask him one question - did you vote? If he replies with "no" then the discussion is at its end. If "Yes" I ask him for whom he voted...this gives the direction for the following discussion :-)

regards - Ralph

Steve, are you suggesting that Austrailia has come up with a way to prevent fools and idiots from entering politics? Or are you suggesting that Austrailia has a way of turning fine inteligent men into a squabiling bunch of tax sucking mollusks?

How many

Well now you have a good point here. We should be sending the millions of poor and homeless and keep the money.

not

If you think the medical care you get is "FREE" you are not clearly thinking. You just pay through the nose up front to those formerly fine inteligent men (now mollusks) who will send out armed agents to extract fines from you if fail to choose between mollusk A or mollusk B on election day.

In a civilised world freedom is defined in many

I guess I don't mind a civilized world as long as it is not too civilized.

Here are some of the American ideas that I am rather fond of.

Free competitive enterprise.

The concept that you can work hard, grab yourself by the bootstraps and significantly raise your station in life.

There ought to be a series of checks and balances in place whereby if our politicians get out of control we can reign them in.

G'day Roger, YEP! Australia is the same as the above, except with a few more Old English ideals thrown into the pot. These days we are practically just another distant state of the USA anyhow, ha ha. As far as our free medical goes, your right, it's not free. Every tax payer contributes about 1 . 5 % of their gross yearly income into the Medicare system, so basically the wealthy contribute more than the poor do, but hey, they can afford to, and at tax time, depending on your personal situation, you can claim a rebate. It all works pretty well overall, and of course you also have the choice of private medical insurance, so you can receive the 'Rolls Royce' treatment with all the trimmings. Totally agree with you on your last point also, but I guess the ultimate check and balance is at the polling booth, which brings us back to our original point of discussion, 'to vote or not to vote, that is the question'. Cheers all. :-)

fond of.

bootstraps and

place whereby if our

except with a few

are practically

far as our free

contributes about 1

system, so basically

they can afford to,

can claim a

you also have the

the 'Rolls Royce'

on your last point

polling booth,

'to vote or not to

the rebate here is called "unearned income credit" know a guy that works full time, doesn't pay in a dime and gets a check for about 3K.

1.5% of gross for health insurance? (thinking in US$) Let's say a reasonably employed guy makes 50K then 1 1/2% would be $750 a year.

Either MD's in OZ are working dirt cheap or you are paying a lot more someplace.

Or the malpractice insurance is a lot less.

Don't forget that 90% of the taxpaying population will not see the inside of a hospital in any given financial year, plus the majority of people might only go to the doctors 2 - 3 times a year, so if that's the norm then that $750 does go a long way. And don't forget the guys and companies that turn over many millions of dollars a year, not just the little guy who only makes

50K. Basically, the healthy support the sickly. Only problem with the system is the lack of specialist doctors and surgeons in OZ at the moment. Public health waiting periods depend on what your medical condition is. If you want to say, get your tonsils out, you will have to wait about 6-12 months, but if you had cancer, or a stroke, then obviously you receive immediate care. The wife & I have private cover which costs us about $2000 per year, but we still have to pay the 1.5% government Medicare levy.

And don't forget the guys and companies that turn

So much for the FREE medical care. We have provisions in the states for the indigent to receive free care also.

actually, I would have no problem with a mandatory voting system...

provided that "none of the above" was an option, and that if it got a majority nobody would fill the post, and it would simply go vacant.

considering that a significant number of Americans who don't vote do that because they believe the system is a sham, or that there is nobody worth voting for....

it would make for interesting elections. ;)

We effectively have this - either by writing in something, or not choosing anyone. (My impression is that mandatory voting means you gotta show up - not that you must choose one of the people on the roster.)

We don't have this.

So you propose that we solve the problem by adding yet another law?

That's my personal opinion as well but we don't need the government enforcing that opinion upon everyone.

That statement could apply to at least some of the elected officials in ANY country including yours.

It's funny, I live here and don't see these "millions". Anyone in America who is homeless is so because they have made a choice, or constant choices to be. They won't work and won't accept any of the modicum of structure that's required by any of the numerous programs to help them change their situation. You're starting to sound a bit like a socialist.

Here we have the concept of insurance. Meanwhile all of you pay to subsidize those that won't buy it, as do we unfortunately, but to a much lesser extent. Canada has a similar system to yours and Canadians routinely cross the border to BUY health care here rather than hassle with the beurocrats in there own country. This isn't surprising though as your dole down there is what the bleeding heart liberals here wish our already far too generous welfare system were.

None of the examples you have given are of freedom. They are of relinquishing freedom to acheive perceived safety and security.

C'mon now, 1.5%?? So a taxpayer earning $100,000 a year pays $1500.00 and has in return ALL his medical expenses covered? That MIGHT (but probably not) work if only taxpayers had medical problems but what about the guy making $100,000 a year with a stay at home wife and 2 little kids?? His family health costs are less than $1500.00 a year? What about all the people with health problems who don't work and pay nothing? What about the people on the dole? Unless medical professionals in your country make what fastfood workers here do the numbers don't add up.