non-safe manipulation 101

If you're a locksmith, why not join IL (Internet Locksmith) or Clearstar? Once you've been approved (takes a couple of days in most cases - and, yes, they do check references), you'll get all of that kind of information you can handle and then some.

IL is still free (I think) and Clearstar offers a free 30 day trial. Both are unbelievable assets to someone just getting started in the profession.

Older Sentrys manipulate fairly well if you know what you're doing. Newer ones (because of their construction) do not. But there are other ways. But it's not info I'd give out without knowing you. As a locksmith, you (hopefully) understand.

See ya on IL!

Bobby

looks like you need to read the FAQ again. you must have missed the point were it says that defeating instruction are NOT given on this open forum. pay the $12.00 bucks and get it open. then take it apart and learn how it works. how to set the combo should be obvious to you once you get inside.

g'day

As tired and hot and miserable as I am, it sure was tempting to instruct him to self destruct after inverted sexual penetration while skydiving from a building.

Wonder why folks think that locksmiths (who attend training, do apprenticeships, work for many years to learn the trade) are going to tell some idiotic nitwit how to unlock safes. And on a public, easy to read forum. I will never understand some people.

Speaking only for myself, my policy is that I don't teach picking techniques unless I've personally known the person for two years.

You can find many forums on the web, but that's out of my control.

When I was new at locksmithing, I was completely fascinated by picking. Now, after 20+ years in the trade, it's an important part of the job, but not totally fascinating. There is so much more to the job.

The reasons I don't teach picking are several.

1) There is no way to know who is the person asking. Most people asking (or lurking and reading the posts) are decent people, but a few are not. So, I've decided simply not to say anything to anyone.

2) Picking locks is a "trade secret" like many other trades which have their techniques and systems.

3) A very small part of the security of locks is that so few people know how to pick them. So, by teaching lock picking, I make all locks less secure for the world. Not what I want to do.

4) Purely selfishly, I learned lock picking the hard way, with lots of practice, and you can do the same.

I wish you well. Hope this doesn't sound unkind, but the world isn't a nice place sometimes.

These are probably the same people who look on a medical site for medical info, or on an auto site for car repair info, or (heaven forbid!) on a news site for news!

The humanity!

Whether or not the container is a "safe" or not, the techniques of opening a combination lock without the combination are still "defeating instructions" and on this group the professionals won't share those bit of knowledge with an internet stranger...

I also doubt that you will find anything credible on-line as to how to defeat combination locks or how to open safes... At least not without legitimate access to trade websites...

So I hope that you can understand why no one will post the information you seek here on alt.locksmithing...

Evan, ~~formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

You can get a great deal of locksmithing info here. Just not _all_ locksmithing info.

A medical site won't tell you how to mix medicines to kill off your rich aunt. An auto site won't tell you how to sabotage her brakes. We won't tell you how to break in and steal her jewels. If you're willing to work hard enough you can probably find all that info, and perhaps even back-derive it from advice about how to prevent these things from happening... but there's no reason for any of us to make it easy for you, and lots of good reasons not to.

(Actually, I should have changed that subject to "safe non-manipulation". Or maybe "un-safe manipulation"...)

I am not working as a locksmith anymore, but I worked in my father's shop through college. We did a lot of safe work. (The shop closed when dad passed away two years ago. I'm in my first year of graduate business school now).

Please don't be put off by the clowns here who try to make you feel guilty for being curious about your safe. It's as if their whole selfworth is tied up in all the secrets they want you to think they know. Except they aren't even secrets. No reputable safe tech or locksmith will ask you to rely on how your safe lock works or how to defeat it being secret. Those who refuse to answer questions about how products work and can be defeated don't deserve your business. There's a good chance that the security reasons they give are really just covering for the fact they they don't know the answer to your question. I'm proud of the fact that Dad never once tried to hide the facts from our customers and he never tried to pretend that he knew more than he did. Our shop did well because we had a good reputation and because the services we provided were valuable, and customers understood that. Not because we knew secrets.

If you want to understand how safes work there is a good article by Matt Blaze called safecracking for computer science that you should read. It's on

The author is a professor who researches locks and security. It is widely known about and no secret. I learned about it from one of my professors in a seminar. It covers the principles of safe lock manipulating very well, at least as well as any of the trade books. There's also a good article on howstuffworks.com. These aren't hard to find on the web.

Anyway about your Sentry. As you know Sentrys are low security safes mostly to protect from fires not thieves. The locks aren't very secure compared to real safe locks although they aren't toys either. Most are what are called direct entry locks. They manipulate differently than the locks in the crypto.com and howstuffworks.com sites. You use the movement of the handle to take your readings. Many have false gates which you'll understand about when you read those web sites. If you are patient and systematic you will get it open eventually and learn a lot in the process. Feel free to post with more specific questions after you've read the background info.

What model Sentry do you have? What color is the handle? How old is it? There's a very slick bypass for most of the black handle models that doesn't do much damage if you don't want to manipulate it and still want to use it afterward. It's kind of involved, but I did it many times and can talk you through it. Just ask.

Now after all that, if you don't want to do this yourself and just want the thing open I would suggest taking it to a good safe technician. Opening shouldn't cost too much, and it will be faster than trying to manipulate it yourself if it's your first safe.

Good Luck

Jeff

YOO HOO..

MAGIC WORDS.. DAD KNEW the person that DID INDEED OWN IT..

this is an 'open forum'.. we CANNOT KNOW the person asking ANY question here is the "LEGAL" owner..

I do the same thing, when facing the customer..especially when I am in their house as well..

but call me up on the phone and ask how to open 'something' and I DONT KNOW YOU.. you dont get an answer.. --Shiva--

Dear Mr. Winters, Since you are open about telling people opening instructions to what may well be someone else's safe.

I presume you'd be kind enough to post your own home adress, and telephone. Also the brand and bitting of the lock on your home. Also your safe combination, if you have a safe at home.

If you'll tell folks how to open others safes, you should tell folks how to open YOUR safe. I'm sure you won't refuse to answer questions about how your door locks work, and can be defeated.

guess you didn't learn much from your late father.. if you would have? you would know where the smiths are coming from with their comments.

Greetings.

I by no means wished for this to become the typical alt.locksmithing flame thread. I have been following this ng since ... well, for too many years to remember. It is an interesting list. I am not a locksmith, nor do i see myself ever entering the trade, professionally. I am thoroughly intrigued by security, it's technologies, methodologies, applications, and anything having to do with it, including locks and safes. My job requires i understand many facets of security. This ng has helped me better understand locks, safes, and security in general.

I do not blame alt.locksmithing subscribers for being so cloak and dagger about their trade. Coming from a digital (security) perspective, where information tends to flow a little more freely, it is often frustrating whenever i encounter such resistance, but so be it. Like it was mentioned, i just have to want it a little more.

FWIW, i find myself having to face that #4 response quite often, in regards to digital security. "Purely selfishly, I learned lock picking the hard way, with lots of practice, and you can do the same." At first, i would give the same responses i would get when browsing the BBSes, which was "RTFM." Then that whole, Golden Rule thing came to mind, and telling my kids, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." So, perhaps i have softened up. These days, when someone asks me about getting through/around some type of system/application, if i respond at all, i try to point them in the direction of a practical and "right" solution. That usually requires they earn it, somehow.

Yes, perhaps i should have reread the FAQ. Lucky for me a few of you read that i did not expect a reply to alt.locksmithing, and responded outside the ng. As was mentioned, who would have guessed it, a safe related question on alt.locksmithing!

I thank the few of you who responded with actual worthwhile responses both to this ng and off the list. JW, i had crypto.com in my very own bookmarks, but failed to go there. Thank you for reminding me there are plenty of answers that may be right in front of me.

As i originally stated, "I want to open it, for fun." My fiance and i are apparently becoming some type of jet-setters, or so she says, as we are perhaps out of town more than in town lately, but hopefully some time soon i will sit down with some tea, a pencil, a notepad, and plenty of patience, and i will open it.

.times enemy

Hello "times enemy":

This is not intended as a flame, however you and others might see it as one...

You are fascinated by security ??? There are ways to learn about it through the proper channels, and not by making a rather pointed and questionable inquiry on an internet newsgroup where anyone on earth who can read english can have access to the content posted...

It sounds as if you are a cyber security programmer from what you have made clear in your last post... Thats great, the world needs such people working very hard to protect the "virtual world" which is ever more increasingly controlling important elements of the real world... That being said however, the founding principles on which your work on computers is based has no applications outside of the cyber realm...

What you and others who read Blaze simply fail to realize is that locks are real... They are physical -- not an electrical charge in a computer apparatus... It is just NOT possible to update all locks as it is to offer update patches to all of the internet connected computers to repair a flaw...

I know that this argument is not new and not mine, but it is a real factor in the decision of whether or not to reveal flaws in consumer products... from locks to cars to garage door openers...

You think that "freedom of information" is in the world's best interest don't you ??? Well to a limited extent it is, but that quest for additional knowledge often goes too far... And when facts are revealed there is an appropriate way to release such knowledge so that such information is not abused...

So let's not ask for a "major defeating instruction"...

Evan, ~~formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

Greetings.

It is not a crime to be intrigued by security. I obviously was not clear enough, as i am not a "cyber security programmer," whatever that is. Hopefully you read the text(s) before you deemed it unworthy ... which would put you into the same boat as those you chastise, and if you didn't ... well, `nuff said. Freedom of Information is a nice concept, but it too has it's flaws.

I received the answer(s) i was seeking by posting to the "internet newsgroup where anyone on earth who can read english can have access to the content posted," and amazingly, the priesthood is safe, "major defeating instruction" did not leak out. (Though you did not quote yourself this time, i felt compelled to do so.)

It is interesting and somewhat entertaining to read your response(s), which is quite dependent on error prone assumptions. So be it. Feel free to continue arguing with yourself, or your imaginary "Times Enemy."

Thank you for more of the same ....

.times enemy

Evan wrote:

What are the "proper channels" of which you speak ?

That's an oversimplified view of the economics - oversimplified to the extent that it is simply incorrect. The fact that the theft of software/data needn't deprive its rightful owner of possesion of it has led many people to this misunderstanding of the facts. Granted the economics of software distribution have moved in this direction, but the assertion that "computer security" (whatever that is) is somehow different

*in kind* are simply not supported in reality. If you are protecting gold bars, you probably don't budget for hygrometers. If you are protecting fine art, you probably do. If you're protecting data, you budget for other things. In all cases, you probably budget for locks, you might budget for guns. Any "computer security" professional who doesn't start with physical premise protection won't be professional for very long.

The interesting thing not to talk about isn't the vulnerability of brand X locks. I don't care if you know how bypass lock Y, but it might be prudent for me not to advertize that I've installed lock Z.

What(or who) is Blaze ?

Well if you are not a computer programmer then what are you ???

Not too many other people consider security : " Coming from a digital (security) perspective"

Perhaps you should make your actual line of work clearly known then...

You seem to buy into Blaze hook, line and sinker, like many computer security types do... The real world is much different from the virtual one...

If it quacks like a duck...

Just what "error prone assumptions" have I made... Your argument for getting defeating instructions for combination locks was made on what could be called the very same thing...

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

1. An apprenticeship in a locksmith shop (the age-old way of learning)
2. Trade school (where they do a background check and document who is learning)
3. Library research at a college which has a mechanical engineering major
4. Work repairing things as a maintenance man and learn gradually over time

NOT by asking QUESTIONS anonymously on an INTERNET NEWSGROUP

Wonderful... You understand the concepts of threat level differences and target hardening... Ok... Now what does your keyboard freewrite above have anything to do with explaining away the difference between the cyber (virtual) world and the physical (real) world...

Theft of data is a terrible thing, and it is good that the computer community works hard to share knowledge in order to keep it as safe as it can be from those out in the world with malicious intentions... However, the technology is capable of being undated rather easily through the download of a patch for the software... The design of keyed locks however, is not and will never be that flexible the way it is constructed... Since Linus Yale invented the pin tumbler lock in the 1840's the major design concept of pin tumbler locks has remained essentially the same... Some improved designs have come along the way (sidebar locks, rotating tumblers, etc) and those improvements are really only totally effective when only a few people understand how they work while they are protected by a patent...

Once patents expire the locks will continue to protect the security of whatever they are installed on... But with each new person that learns the secrets of how it works it becomes more prone to attack by those with the malicious intentions... The lock cylinder that is installed and has now become obslete will require total replacement in oreder to be secure again... How many consumers do you think would keep their computers for very long if they had to replace the hard drive in order to upgrade security ???

Blaze, Matt...

A computer scientist and college professor who thinks (incorrectly) that computer science's prespective on security issues can and should be applied to locks...

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student