`Safe cracking' article and matt Blaze

Then I suppose he was told (before he bought the Sentry) that it was crap, that it could be carried off, that he needed an alarm to back up any safe, etc? If he was not told this then he did not make an informed decision.

I would not say thet he was lazy unless he specifically said so. Isn't being robbed on the way to the night deposit one of the higher frequency (non random) roberies? I've worked several spots where the most junior manager had to do the deposit because no one wanted to be the target. I recall all had a safe to hold the money till daylight. Some were better than others, of course.

Daniel

I'll bite :-)

I have what I understand to be cheap to middling locks on my doors (I do have good doors, but that's because I like the feel of a solid, heavy door, not for security), but I don't really think that's relevant here. My home is not secure, and there's virtually no way I could make it secure, if for no other reason than I don't want to put bars over all of my windows. Further, there's really no reason for me to care hugely about the security of my home. Effectively, I secure my belongings with insurance, not deadbolts. I secure my family through other deterrents as well as a willingness and ability to defend them.

Frankly, I think most people are like me and don't need good locks on their homes, and wouldn't benefit from them if they had them.

That does not change the fact, however, that at present most people are convinced that their locks are much better than they really are, and I think that's a problem. Because it can really bite people who actually

I think you'd be surprised just how many security "geeks" have an excellent grasp of the "real world". I, for example, started my security education with the physical security of nuclear weapons and other military resources, and even now physical security is a significant part of every computer security analysis that I do.

Shawn

But, apparently, lots of you DO defend the lockmakers bad decisions and help them by trying to suppress information that would reveal just how bad their products are.

I agree that the lockmakers need to make better locks, and I believe that more competition among high-security lockmakers would result in locks that are both quite good and reasonably-priced. But those things are not going to happen until the consumers know that some locks are better than others and that it matters. Disclosure of weaknesses is the only way that's going to happen.

Shawn.

I see this assertion that people will not fix the problem as a common refrain. I assert that it's not an absolute. Some people will fix the problem via upgrade or supplement a poor lock with a better one. Some others will start using the deadbolt that's already installed, once they learn that the doorknob is inadequate.

While I agree that locks are only part of a home's security, it should be noted that breaking windows and kicking in doors is noisy and leaves damagee that can be spotted by the neighbors. You can quickly and quietly pop the center out of a kwikset knob and it will not be evident to passers-by. You can use channel locks on most of the cheaper brands to simply break the mechanism, making some noise but still not leaving enough damage to attract attention.

Bradly asked... "What's the point?" The point is that if the average joe thinks he is secure, he will always choose the low cost solution. Given the truth, he has the option of doing better. Without the truth, he thinks he's done what should be done.

A last word about security through obscurity. It works. We see it every day. Where it breaks down is when the obscure part can easily be discovered. If you make a million safes the same way, you can't claim that your weaknesses are obscure. If you hide a key under the mat, it's only obscure till someone sees you retrieve it. A common practice (such as hiding a key) cannot be considered obscure, since everyone knows it to be a common practice.

Daniel

As I explained more fully in another post, I do not consider my home to be a secure building. There's no point in buying good locks with all of the unprotected windows, the unsecure garage door (even the "rolling code" door openers are pretty weak), weak walls (siding + 2x4s + drywall), etc. I had a really good chuckle a few years ago about a rash of burglaries of multi-million dollar homes in and around Hollywood. All of these expensive homes had expensive security systems which the burglars bypassed by simply cutting a hole in the exterior wall.

Even if my fantasy about public disclosure of lock weaknesses were reality, I would probably still buy cheap locks, but it would be an informed decision (actually, in my case it was an informed decision anyway, but for most people it is not).

Shawn.

right, blame Sam's Club, cause thats where he got it..

we have had ONE situation of that here in the last 15 years, and THEN, the problem was a compoound-the night deposit lock was 'jammed on purpose' and even then, the local cops are so bored they will escort you if need be.

--Shiva--

no, we can say this lock HAS weaknesses..without telling the WHOLE WORLD, that to get through this lock you take this tool, and do 'that' to it, and its open.. we can recommend till we are blue in the face, but the customer is THE deciding factor..

most of the stuff now made for 'house' types is made overseas.. at least that I see sold.. and that price will not come down.. no matter what one thinks.. they are like the pill industry-we got a patent on 'this' and we are going to both MAKE and PROTECT that, and we can charge what we want to the commercial hardware, locksmith, and in some cases, retail customer. so sayeth the lock makers.

--Shiva--

if the homes had 'fancy security systems' BESIDES the locks, then they were NOT informed of the ways TO bypass THOSE systems, AND were not informed of a BETTER security system.. so, the alarm companies were ALSO remiss in informing folks of what is really needed.

--Shiva--

You see Shawn, this is exactly the sort of statement that defies logic. If you set out to buy yourself a new car, but are only prepared to spend the bare minimum, then that's exactly what you'll get, a KIA .... NOT A ROLLS ROYCE. Common sense will tell you that it won't be as good, so why the hell do you keep up with this stupid argument ?. There are a million top grade locks on the market, all of coarse are more expensive than the $15 Chinese lockset most people grab off the shelf at Kmart. As with anything you buy, price will generally indicate quality. My final comment on the subject !!.

The dogs are not bullet proof, and the owner of such dogs would not escape a lawsuit (and criminal prosecution in some places) should an intruder become somehow mauled...

Home security should be ensured with an alarm system, not anlmals...

Evan, ~~Formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

HEH: Where is this ???

MOST police departments WILL NOT do that type of thing due to liability issues... If this is that tough of an area then I don't see why a group of people working together would be able to overtake a police officer if the amount of money is large enough...

Can you see the Headline?: "Cop ambushed, deposit money stolen!"

Evan, ~~Formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

Shawn:

If the "lockmakers" need to make "higher-security" locks more affordable, the only thing that will happen is that A LOT more of the production will be outsourced to China... If you focus on the PRICEPOINT like the comsumers making the decisions to either buy the "high-security" lock or the one with the $25.00 price tag then the "lockmakers" would have little choice than to move production to places with few or no labor protection laws in order to make those lower pricepoints a reality...

A $500 Medeco lock on the standard cheapie Home Depot "contractor grade" entry door is wasted money... The door will fly apart when hit with a sledge hammer... Got windows on your house, most houses do... That opens up a whole other can of worms... HOME security is NOT possible without integrating an alarm system into your security plan...

Evan, ~~Formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

So you are basically generalizing like most people do about alarm systems, thinking that a "perimeter alarm" type system of monitoring doors and windows is adequatge to protect the house...

A PROPER alarm system that takes all possibilities into consideration would have been designed with some type of motion or thermal sensors protecting large open spaces... I have even seen commercial buildings employ pressure sensors underneath the vinyl floor tiles in hallways as the "last line of defense"

Just a thought...

Evan, ~~Formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

Given the fact that he is one of the most OUTSPOKEN people against those papers I tend to agree with your opinion on the matter...

The best way to get people to look at something is to make it controversial...

Evan, ~~Formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

Steve, it might as well be your "final comment on the subject". This guy refuses to see the other side of the coin...

g'day

That's why I have beware of dog and no trespassing signs.

I don't know that either totally enusures it. Both will help. The mere presense of dogs will deter a large percentage of casual snoops and potential thieves. They don't like the noise and they don't want to chance a bite. An alarm can work very well BUT the majority of residential alarms are not securely monitored.

He's trying to say in a round-about way that an increase in consumer demand for higher security locks will drive the price down via greater demand. The problem is that a high security lock is never going to be as cheap to manufacturer as a low security one no matter what, and as you already said most people aren't willing to pay ANY additional cost. In alot of cases it's hard to argue with their logic in terms of security since the lock is rarely the weakest link anyway.

Did you mean to say "would be able to" or "would not be able to"? The reason they frequently will not try is because a. the cop is armed and at least one of them WILL in all probability get shot. b. Best case senario for the robbers they will likely have to kill the cop to avoid all being shot. Cop mentality is: "The law is on my side and I ain't backing down". You kill a cop and 9 out of 10 times you're done because they will exhaust all available resources to catch you. We have had cases where I am that have gone years, but in the end they almost always get them, and kill a cop in the south is a sure way to get the needle, the chair, or the gas as the case may be.