`Safe cracking' article and matt Blaze

Burglar alarms are not much good unless they are monitored. Closed circuit monitoring and or RF based systems are best.

They would

.22 loaded with subsonics + tape + plastic soda bottle full of steel wool or for the really lazy or more or less NFA abiding a simple pillow over the muzzle equal very little noise.

Or pay the tax stamp and buy the real thing = even less noise.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere
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I see you've never actually Tried the pillow over the muzzle.. it's not like on the movies. you can still find attachments that screw onto the end of a threaded .22 barrel than you then screw a 3L bottle onto. it's good for a couple of shots..

I don't see why you'd need to suppress a weapon you're shooting an intruder with though. at such range the firing is still plenty audible, it just doesn't sound like a gunshot. your position would still be given away.

this is a job for a 12ga.

Reply to
fugi

Agreed.

The good is that the public will be better informed about the relative security afforded by different types of locks and be able to make better informed decisions when purchasing security hardware.

Electronic replacements for mechanical combination locks are new within the last decade or two.

By the way, if something is patented it is by definition not a secret. The patent document, available from the government as well as online, will contain very detailed drawings and technical descriptions of the invention.

True trade secrets are never patented, but instead guarded from public disclosure. For example, you will find a design patent on the shape of a Coke bottle, but you won't find a patent on the formula for Coca-Cola.

Reply to
Jay Hennigan

A NFA silencer will reduce the noise of a .22 by ~20 dB. It still makes a conserderable amount of noise.

Reply to
KnowledgeGeyser

There are designs that do better than 20db, especially wet. 20db is in and of itself a large reduction. An effective .22 rimfire supressor will reduce the sound to considerably less than that of a high power air rifle, assuming use of subsonic ammo.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

You make a good point against your original argument when you say this:

followed by this:

Obscurity doens't protect you against the determined attacker, only the novice or accidental threat. Hiding the design simply gives the OWNER of the safe a false sense of security, making them believe it is a better product than it actually is or that it solves a different problem than it actually solves. Thanks for providing a great example for us!

Reply to
Captain Roger

Two flaws:

Software updates automatically because the software manufacturer built it with the assumption that the software might need upgrading. Ever try to patch DOS? Or the original Mac OS? Almost impossible. Only with a change of perspective did simple upgrading become possible, but now there is no way a responsible IT person would recommend an older OS, even if no one is activly trying to exploit the old systems anymore.

Why not design a safe so that when the door is unlocked, the lock itself can be easily replaced by a newer model? That small investment by the industry could mitigate the 'too expensive to upgrade' argument. The software industry made this change out of necessity... the physical security world could learn from this example.

And a person buying Windows XP is not a "security" customer, they are someone buying a web browser, file system, email system, media player, etc. Yet they expect security in the product they buy, because they are told by everyone else that they should expect it, whereas a person buying a safe expects security because that's the reason they bought the safe in the first place.

Reply to
Captain Roger

I said the latter not the former. Here it is in context:

Putyourspamhere Jan 14, 7:05 pm show options

Sure it is, against anyone the mechanism remains obscure to.

"

So much for that.

And they will. It's a matter of time the amount of which required is directly but inversely proportionate to their knowledge of what they are doing or lack thereof.

Of course it does if the "determined" attacker happens to break in and try to open a safe they have no knowledge with regard to the mechanism or characteristics of. A "determined" attacker can spend hours beating on a TRTL60X6 with a sledge hammer. He isn't going to get anywhere.

Hiding the design simply gives the OWNER

Wrong again. It makes it more secure against anyone who isn't familiar with the mechanism which amounts to the vast majority of people even criminals. I have opened and replaced more than a few burglary damaged safes and as most anyone else who has done it will tell you professional techniques are rarely used. If your position were accurate a safe with the drill template glued to the front of it would be just as secure against the same portion of the general population as the same safe without it. Hell lets etch it on there so it doesn't get damaged. Yeah, your position is pretty stupid.

Thanks for providing a great example

There was no example for the point you you are trying (poorly) to make provided for you. Your failure to comprehend is not an indictment of that which you fail to understand.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

neighbors

And it's quiet and so is the pillow WITH A .22 and with subsonic ammo. Let's just say that any experience I might or might not have with either method would have hypotheticly been done for experimental puposes only and the statute of limitations would have run on it before I would post any reference, even a hypothetical one, to it on a newsgroup like this. I prefer to just pay the tax stamp and avoid the jail time. $200.00 is a cheap price to pay for peace of mind. As far as professionally manufactured models there are plenty of affordable ones with 35db or better dry reduction. The .22 models are VERY quiet, again with subsonic ammo, no supressor is going to eliminate the crack from a supersonic projectile. The larger calibers are very audible from the actual location where the firing occurs. However they are audible over a much shorter distance than an unsupressed shot is. Even if you live in the country why not be considerate to the neighbors whenever possible?

That wasn't the context. The context was removing gaurd or sentry dogs. As far as your statement think hearing damage even temporary that can prevent your hearing something you need to after firing. Not a problem with a .22 but then who is going to use a .22 for self defense unless it's all they have available? Is the supressor worth the trade off in weight and bulkiness? Maybe, meybe not, depends on the situation.

at such range the firing is still plenty

That isn't the purpose if you're using it defensivly, see above.

That is subject to infinite debate and in fact, logically, will vary with your particular home defense strategy and the layout of your house.

Reply to
putyourspamhere

you got that right. "Most folks" doesn't matter how they are trained. they would be dead dogs.

no flame intended

Reply to
putyourspamhere

Evan,

Pepper spray works well against dogs but if there are a bunch of them you better have the fogger kind and even then I wouldn't stake much on your chances of getting enough of them unless you can do them one at a time through a fence.

Reply to
putyourspamhere

Key is the group halfwitt he has no f****ng idea what the hell he is talking about 95% of the damn time. He lives in a broken down tralier and being they are smarter than he is your dogs would eat his ass alive no doubt.

Reply to
SSA

YAWN

She aint gonna do shit.

Obviously she understands the

No she doesnt she just realizes that the best way to deal with a paranoid wack job is to humor them.

You should also send to

Which is bullshit.

ROFLOL

Any real pro will

Then nobody on this group will have f****ng clue.

Reply to
SSA

It's easy reading because there is no useful info there.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

LOL Where the confusion is in your pathetic attempt to bolster your claim by excluding where it was originally explained how where and why it works.

This has been discussed to death and what you are posting is nothing new.

LOL You just in essence said there is no reason to keep the combo secret. Go ahead print it on the front of your safe.

In the latter case, it may be tempting to say that obscurity is

It tends to get expensive and time consuming disassembling all the models available.

All this ignores the fact that with any good quality safe everyone that doesn't know the mechanism is effectively at a huge disadvantage. That includes virtually all amateur/casual burglars, which is most of them. In order for your theory to hold true a safe with the drill template glued to the front of the damn thing would have to be as secure from AS MANY PEOPLE as the same safe with nothing to give away the drill points. Now if you like you go right ahead and get a drill template for any safe you happen to have and glue it to the front of it in the correct location and then when it gets burgled proudly explain what you did to the insurance company and see what happens.

And all this is addressed by the ratings system which has only existed for decades. Any safe can be opened without knowing the correct combo. It's only a matter of time.

In the true sense of the term there is no such thing. Even in computer security it is rare or nonexistent and no commonly used PC OS even comes close. There are only degrees of security all falling in some manner short of being absolutely proven secure.

and if a

That's why restricted systems exist. Have fun making the blank.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

Many will require that and that's why ratings exist. However with no obscurity you aren't only talking about "professional safe crackers". You are talking about anybody with a modicum of proficiency with basic tools. Go ahead put the drill template on the front of the damn thing and multiply the number of people who have the knowledge to break into it by 100,000 or more. Feel safer now?

I DO NOT want

Then by all means go all out and get an X-09. The lock will run you $1000.00 or so.

And so are you now that you've pasted the drill template on the front of your freakin safe since you think security by obscurity doesn't work at all. Now even Joey crackhead can have a shot at drilling it open, probably with your tools since he didn't bring his own.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

No lock is 100% secure. Your house or apt isn't 100% secure irregardless of the locks either. I gaurantee you I could be in in a few minutes tops, no matter what locks you have. Think your computer is secure? LOL

It is impossible to fix all 'flaws' and there is little reason to fix any that Blaze mentioned since they are already 'fixed' by more secure designs which stop the technique he talked about cold.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

The practical real world measure of security is how many people can defeat it. Go down to your local bank and ask them for the particulars on their hold up and burglar alarms and see how far you get.

How about posting the particulars of YOUR alarm system on the front door of your house make, model, and type of reporting as well as the siren location and protective circuit schematic. Be sure to tell your insurance company you're doing it. Don't have an alarm? Then your house likely has near 0 security.

Paste the drill template for your safe on the front of it and tell yourself it's just as secure. Again be sure and tell your insurance company.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

"SSA" snipped-for-privacy@somesmartass.com trolled in message

---snip the clueless troll yet again---

and you are still as clueless as you have always been.

oh yea, PLONK !

Reply to
Key

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