fiberglass insulation made in 1930; Museum of insulation???

Use a bunsen burner Arch. Cellulose will burn, glass wool will fuse. Pragmatist - "Use a bigger hammer!"

And asbestos won't burn. If it is mixed, it will be hard to tell. Take a sample to a lab and spend the $15-25. Great piece of mind.

Thanks, I have a torch and will try that test.

It is mixed and so what Henry is saying is applicable.

I am not so confident in mailing it off. Do not even know if it is legal to mail insulation samples, probably not. And I would like to see the test conducted because something as important as this-- air I breathe. What if a mistake or shoddy test facility says it is okay when it is not okay. I would be confident if I saw a University or College professor conduct an actual test on a sample that I gave to him/her. The state of affairs and the legal system I am not trusting of these mail-in kits because commercial interests are there more than knowledge interests. What assurance do I have that the outfit that tests it is not trying to sell me a asbestos removal work team. It is easy to just declare any sample as containing asbestos when in fact it may not contain asbestos. And then again they may test someone elses and send me the wrong test result.

Many of these asbestos testers probably have a commercial tie in with removal outfits and it would behoove them to say it contains asbestos even if it does not.

I would like the peace of mind of knowing 100% whether I have asbestos or not but because there are hundreds or thousands of mail in kits my confidence is less than 50-50.

Someone else some months back wrote that there is a microscopic test for asbestos by placing it under a microscope and seeing whether -- I forgotten what it was--. But it sounded as though that test was not very conclusive for it depended more on judgement and adding the fact that it was dangerous in handling where asbestos would actually get on the hands. I don't even want to touch the stuff.

Henry, I wonder if someone has Easy, and Sure way of testing whether a material is fiberglass. Above it was mentioned of bunsen burner but is there an easier way to test fiberglass. Is it crushable so that given a anvil and hammer in one spot that it is quickly turned into powder.

We should assume all insulation is asbestos unless known otherwise so that if we can definitely tell it is fiberglass and or cellulose then it is not asbestos.

I would like to be confident of testing labs but am not.

Archimedes Plutonium, a snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

I fully agree. I can't comment about the USA, but here in NZ, labs that offer an asbestos test facility are very careful to ensure the result is correct, and often forward mixed samples to a national occupational health lab for confirmation if any doubt exists. The definitive tests involve specialist microscopy skills.

The danger with this approach is that you could have mixed insulation from several eras, and some asbestos could still be present. There have been several types of mineral fibre insulation used over the decades, and the only real test is to examine a representative sample from the area of concern for asbestos fibres.

Note that physical appearance is not a good guide, nor is burning ( which would identify flammable products, but here in NZ, some asbestos-based building insulation products were mixtures of flammables and minerals ).

Given the huge liability issues with asbestos, I would think that labs offering asbestos identification would be very careful to ensure their testing was accurate.

If homeowners are doubtful about commercial labs, they can always contact their local occupational health authorities, they may have a register of accredited testing labs - possibly a little more expensive, but the piece of mind may justify their selection.

The first step should always be a risk assessment. If the insulation is in a sealed area that isn't exposed to draughts, is there any possibility of fibre generation that could be inhaled?. If the area is sealed and seldom disturbed, the removal cost may outweigh the health and peace of mind issues.

Bruce Hamilton

Labs have to be NELAP (federal) certified and state licensed. It is illegal for the lab to be part of a contracting company. The ONLY way to tell composition is with PLM or TEM microscopy. You can not do it yourself. I've been dealing with asbestos for over 15 years.

You can double ziplock bag it, put it in a padded enelope and mail it. Unless you are living in the middle of nowhere, there should be a lab close by. All major cities have several. Again, in most states, you have to have a lab report if you ever want to have it removed. If you need to mail it, I can suggest several labs in your area or nationally.

It is only illegal to send mercury above a certain quantity (several thermometers) and then you can do it with the proper paperwork. It does have to be ground shipped.

Okay, thanks Henry, I live in Vermillion, South Dakota which is in the south-east corner of South Dakota. The nearest big city is Sioux City, Iowa.

Thanks, it is about time I squared this problem away. I feel sad in regards that I was not able to resolve it myself with tests. For the material has mixed stuff inside it and so the "sensible thing" is to have the science lab give the answers.

Thanks

Now I wonder, Bob, what is the relationship between cleavage planes and the ability of asbestos to NOT-burn. There maybe no relationship and that the cleavage planes maybe a characteristic separate from the ability to not burn.

Bob, or Henry, can you tell me at what temperature asbestos does begin to be affected by heat??

Recently I was in a discussion in sci.physics.fusion about a Sun poison to slow down the fusion in the Sun. Now I do not expect asbestos to be a Sun poison for I can envision it vaporizing as it nears the Sun regions.

But is Asbestos perhaps the material that if aimed at the center of the Sun, that asbestos would survive unvaporized the longest of all Earth materials???

Asbestos is not one mineral it is in fact a crystaline property exibited by a number of crystaline minerals. The property which give rise to a sbestos is the presence of two easy cleavage planes at an angle in the crystal. This causes the crystal to split when crushed into fine fibres. The only way to identify whether or not a material is asbestos (more correctly an asbestiform mineral) is a detailed microscopic examination by a competent microscopist.

Bob Molony.

Ps if you send me a sample plus my fee I could do the job.

Some of the early fiberglass insulation is wicked stuff. Rigid needled mass easily capable of piercing the heaviest gloves as well as the soles of shoes and boots

1930 give a description. Query with the OCF Company. Owens Corning Fiberglass make fiberglass of many varieties.( E- , C- , S- A- ,etc)

Back in 1930 it would probably have been a form of rock wool, made by pouring molten basalt or a similar rock (maybe limestone with additives) onto a spinning disc (the Hager disc, see DRP No.539 738 of 26 Nov 1931), or else steam blowing the stream of vitreous material flowing from a cupola (see DRP No.626 436 of 26 Feb 1936).

Both fairly crude processes, but they carried on in use until the 1950s or even later.

The references come from "Glass Machines" by W Giegerich and W Trier, published by Springer Verlag in 1969 and translated by Prof Norbert Kreidl, page 381.

While in college in the 60's I worked summers for an electrician. Being the young squirt, I got to do all the crawling-into-holes tasks. One attic I went into had loose fiberglass (I hope it was fiberglass) with no paper backing placed between the rafters. Needless to sy, my clothes got full of it. I itched for a week.

Paper backing? That's not normally used. The batt is rolled up into a roll, and then rolled out into the gap between the rafters. The itch goes away.

Subject: Re: Sure test of Fiberglass Re: Hammering test for insulation to tell what it is Re: fiberglass insulation made in 1930; Museum of insulation??? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 01:09:49 -0500 From: Archimedes Plutonium Reply-To: NOdtgEMAIL Organization: whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies Newsgroups: sci.materials, sci.chem References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6

Henry Boyter wrote:

Hi Henry, well I mailed my first samples today of attic insulation and feel much better about the fact of receiving information as to its content whether it has or does not have asbestos. Knowing is worth alot.

Henry, I was wondering since most of the labs are PLM and only a few are TEM as to what the difference between these are? And whether one of those methods can analyze gas-flu-pipes for asbestos (don't know how I can get a sample off the pipes)? And whether one can test for asbestos in drywall sheets used near a woodstove. And whether one can test for asbestos in slate-type exterior siding? I would like to test all suspicious materials for asbestos content.

Wondering how the attic insulation news will come back? Will they give a percentage of asbestos if it contains any? Will they analyze the entire sample or just a few fibers? And if it has a mixed content, seems as though the only way to be thorough is to test the entire sample, but how is that possible if the test is under a microscope.

Just some musings on my part before the news returns.

Archimedes Plutonium, a snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

--- end of original post ---

I originally posted the above. I assumed something was being collated at Google as a reason for it not appearing on Google. Then I was informed that someone had written a virus in which the command execution is such that the Internet posts of Archimedes Plutonium appear on my local home ISP but that the posts never appear on Google or AOL or other ISPs.

Recently a Minnesota man was apprehended for the Microsoft Windows virus. I suppose he will spend some jail time for his actions. And the person who wrote a virus that censors AP's posts to the science newsgroups, equally, deserves jail time.

For a long time I had thought the reason many of my posts never appeared on Google or other ISP was due to overhaul or down-time or system maintenance. But now I am under the impression that those many posts never appeared because someone wrote a virus execution that prevents those posts from appearing.

Archimedes Plutonium, a snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

All of the things you mention can contain asbestos. I would not take samples of materials that are whole. You may do more damage than it is worth. Most things that are in good shape are only tested during renovation these days. If you are extremely curious, see if you can find a consultant in the area that will look at the material. I know you are sort of isolated. Call the local school district and find who they use (they have to have a consultant under AHERA in most cases). A good consultant can tell asbestos visually in many cases. My mother's house is covered in asbestos shingles. We just leave them alone. They aren't hurting a thing.

The results will have % of each type of asbestos. The sample is viewed under a wide field scope first to determine homogeneity of the sample and the suspicious areas are then tested by PLM under another scope. TEM just sees smaller fibers and is mainly used after removal in schools. PLM is the OSHA and EPA method of choice for bulk samples.

hb

Please cease your constant changing of posting address. Your drivel is still not welcome anywhere ... sorry :)

Bruce

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