Yes, the experience does need to go with the degree hands down. I like building, and am getting a degree to pursue the ability to create inventions. Thanks!
I must concur with MLD. I've been in industry for eighteen years and worked for seven different companies. In my industry (machine design) there are virtually no PE's. It's not required and if you don't work in an environment where the PE "system" has been established (like in consulting or the automotive industry) it is very difficult to even get the PE. I got an accredited degree and passed the EIT, but that's where it has remained. The test doesn't scare me, but there are requirements that your supervisor be a PE, etc., which has always kept me out. It would be a useless, prestige-oriented title for me anyway--I would never have any need to use the stamp.
When I first entered the workforce (mid-Eighties) there were a lot of non-degreed engineers. I have worked at places where I was the *only* degreed engineer. But in recent years employers seem to be trying to phase out the non-degreed engineers and require an education, even for the most mundane engineering positions. I agree with this policy since, in twenty years, you have an experienced group of engineers, all of which have degrees as well. The pitfall lies in believing that newly-graduated engineers can do the same work as an experienced, non-educated engineer. In these times where companies are increasingly managed by non-techincal (accounting) people who don't understand the difference, this has become fairly widespread.
I am a PE, mechanical engineering, with 40 years of experience in the design of rolling mill machinery and have worked at companies where I was the only PE on staff. The number of PEs employed by an OEM is a selling point to clients buying unique equipment. Rolling mill machinery is designed for each client. There are no "off the shelf" products. Like bridges, every piece of equipment is designed for the client - no two alike. State laws regarding engineers have become tighter regarding non-graduate engineers, but some still accept them for licensing IF they have the required years of experience and can pass the exams.
Regarding the above, I should have included the words "by law". Just as having a drivers license gives you the right to drive a vehicle on public roads, you must be acknowledged by the state in which you work to practice engineering as an individual. (You may live on a farm and driving the family tractor since you were 6 years old, but without a drivers license you cannot drive a motor vehicle on a public road.) Employed by a company, you are under the laws giving that company the right to have engineers employed. The president of the company or chief engineer may be the only PE in the company. As an individual, you cannot practice engineering without a license in the state in which you work. My comments were in regard to the comments about a non-graduate designing a building, etc. Public projects require that a PE be in the loop. Check the laws in the state where you work. Not all states have the same criteria, but in general they are similar.
Your comments implied that only graduate engineers qualified for that kind of design work. Formal education is the foundation of a persons career, but not everyone has the opportunity. I was attempting to state formal education does not necessarily apply to all persons by mentioning you investigate inventors of the past. Probably the most noticeable individual that I can recall at this time is Thomas Alva Edison. Unfortunately, not all of us are Edisons.
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Edison (1847 - 1931) Considered by many as one of the greatest inventors in history, he was born in Milan, Ohio. He obtained patents in such fields as telegraphy, phonography, electric lighting and photography. In
1882, he designed the first hydroelectric plant in Appleton, Wisconsin. In 1879, he and Sir Joseph Wilson Swan (in England) simultaneously invented similar carbon filament incandescent light bulbs. Edison improved upon Swan's design and by the end of 1880 had produced a 16-watt light bulb that would last for 1500 hours.
As a boy, Edison had only three months of formal schooling. He was taught at home by his mother, a former teacher. He changed the lives of millions of people with such inventions as the electric light bulb and the phonograph. In his lifetime, he patented 1,093 inventions.
There is no reason to assume that an engineer can't be just as good a manager as a person with any other educational background. Management skills can't truly be taught; some people are just good at it. Having a manager who is also an engineer is an extremely valuable asset.
1) All engineers are self taught. IMHO, most graduates will admit they knew little about their job and how engineering really fit into it when they came into the job
2) graduate engineers start the process after having been taught how to model a wide range of phenomena mathematically and how to approach problems logically. non-graduate engineers learn modelling specific to their area and learn the problem process on the job.
3) a graduate engineer, given their deliberately wide exposure in school, should be able to adapt to a wider range of task areas more rapidly than a non-graduate would.
4) a study a few years back had 19 of 20 graduate engineers in other areas after five years --(marketing, slaes, management)
5) After five years in the field, graduate of MIT cuts no more scum than a graduate of Fred's school of engineering - unlike many of the professions, for engineers it's not who you know at what school, it's what you can get done
6) a poor mentoring of a new graduate engineer has the same effect as poor mentoring of a non-graduate engineer - poor people skills, lack of understanding of the team process, lack of understanding of the two major managment styles (plantation style and lifeboat style- also known as team and I-am-God-the-Father-manager), and the narrow vs wide outlook the two methods require of their servants/employees
- can you tell I dislike the God-as-manager coaches and the I am da massa a da plantation do as i say, cog method?
A good question. On a personal selfish level I would rather be managed by a good manager, who is not an engineer, than by an engineer, who is not a good manager.
My manager is my representative in the company. He gets me the resources I need to accomplish the work /we/ do. If he trusts me to prioritise the work, and to correctly identify the resources required, then he does not need to understand at a technical level what we are doing. This is, approximately, the case in my current job and my previous job, and for that matter to a greater or lesser extent over the last eighteen years.
Your points are straight to the heart of this thread--I have always been of the opinion that basically all school did for the individual was give him/her a background of nomenclature that could get them started once on the job. As new engineers, they are of little value and must be mentored and nurtured. Regardless of the Specialty, Mech, Elec etc., you become what you're asked to do. My company (GE, Aircraft Engines) covered every branch of engineering and very few of them worked in their specific field. As a Mech, I never designed one piece of hardware. I worked with analog/digital and hydromechanical control systems; did systems design and lots of transient analysis--some analytical, but mostly from running test programs and evaluating the test results. Lots of troubleshooting etc. etc.. Just about all the nondegreed engineers were in a very limited arena-test, instrumentation, computer support. MLD
U need the correct educational ingredients, as well as a love of engineering and science and an enquiring mind. Leave out the formal education and its more difficult but not impossible. The more imagination and originality the better for project work but too much will make you unsuitable for formal education. Lots of Art school graduates make good researchers and engineers.
My experience is that the degree gets you the job interview. It doesn't matter how good you are, it is used to make the first cut. Once you get past that, then experience, price etc count for more. Without the paperwork, you won't get a chance to prove it. Of course there may be legal liability reasons or similar that mean that you have to have the qualifications to do the job,etc. G
A degree doesn't mean a thing if you have a PE, SE license. This will count above the degree. A self taught engineer who has passed the professional exams will only have this when presenting qualifications for an interview. Then comes experience, price etc. This method initially is time consuming of course but it takes discipline and desire but can be done. ______________________________________________________________ Charles I. Dinsmore, P.E., S.E. / R.A. ~ chuck snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com
Chuck, your reply is rather industry specific. In my field (automotive) I doubt anyone pays attention to PE. When interviewing for technical jobs I do look at the /academic/ record, but mostly I'm looking for experience and flair.
There again I'm probably a lousy interviewer.
Incidentally whoever above wrote that you need the piece of paper to get the interview is spot on, in my experience.
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