Alternatives to an RF30 - help needed

OK, here ya go. Watch this NG until you see a posting by a guy named "Gunner". Infer his email address. Email Gunner and make a deal with him for one of his nice small knee mills. Pay the big bucks and have it shipped. Voila.

Or else go buy an RF-45 from Penn Tool Company. Assuming you're on the East Coast. (Come to think of it, you didn't actually *say* where you are - this is something you should provide IMHO.)

There!

Grant Erw> Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I look

You're right... I'm in San Francisco.

The RF45 is the "Top Tech Geared Head Mill/Drill Dovetail Column", yes? Penn Tool's is the first of these I've seen with the dovetail. Anybody else sell this model with the dovetail?

Peter

Come to think of it... What do you think of the "Top Tech Bench Knee Mill" sold by Penn Tools?

This is an old rcm posting, might still work:

"You can find their web site at

This contact will go direct to Taiwan, they in turn will refer you to Freddie @

1-626-579-9696 C.P. Machine Tools Inc. 10925 So. El Monte Calif. 91733"

Also,

"This machine is available from Thomas Skinner & Sons, in Vancouver B.C.

13880 Vulcan Way; Richmond BC (604) 276-2131"

Best I can do, good luck!

Grant Erw> You're right... I'm in San Francisco.

Before I bought the miller that I have (my first miller) I thought I'd need a vertical miller. There are a number of makes of vertical miller out there but they are generally all very tall (7 to 8 feet tall). One of my criteria was compact size. I finally bought a horizontal miller, which generally are much shorter (mine is roughly 4 1/2 feet tall). I had thought that a horizontal miller wouldn't be versatile enough, but I was quite wrong. I have an accessory vertical head for it but I've only used it once, and actually got better results without it. A horizontal mill can be used pretty much like a vertical mill if you clamp your work on an angle plate. You don't have the convenience of a quill down feed (like on a drill press) and you have to think a bit sideways (which becomes second nature in no time). I'm told that the particular miller that I have, although less than half the size of a Bridgeport class machine, can take much heavier cuts than one, and I believe it now after using the vertical head and an end mill. Another advantage to a horizontal miller which doesn't get mentioned too often, is that the cutters have many more cutting surfaces than an equivalent end mill, and so the axiom of "Many hands make light work" comes into play, in this case in the form of reduced wear on your cutters. It's easier for the home shop machinist to sharpen plain milling cutters than it is to sharpen end mills, the latter usually needing to be sent out to a pro.

I'm sure you'd be surprised at what you can do with a small used horizontal miller. Some brands are, Atlas (probably the most common), Benchmaster (a very small bench mounted job -- good luck at finding one), South Bend made a horizontal miller at one time though I've never seen one come up for sale. Mine is a Hardinge. Nichols is another brand. Van Norman's are beautiful machines that can operate in both horizontal and vertical mode by means of a retractable/swivelling head (they're kind of on the big side though). Those are just off the top of my head.

There is an ebay seller called Reliable Tools which from all appearances seems to be a very reputable used machinery dealer (I've never dealt with them, however) who is located in Irwindale (and has a showroom where you can see some of the stuff under power). In fact, I just went to ebay to get their address for you and I ran across this cute little miller:

I'm not familiar with these millers but from the looks of the photos it seems that the cabinet is not absolutely necessary and the machine could be bolted to a benchtop if you're really hurting for space.

Good luck.

Artemia,

Thank you for your response and the work that went into it. This is big help.

That IS a pretty cute little mill to which you've l>

Or this one from the same seller:

which is a Clausing 8520 knee mill. At least sort of - there have been some modifications made that suggest it would need looking at before bidding, or at least agreement that you could back out if it was not up to snuff. Someone that looked at claimied that it does not appear as good in person as the pictures would suggest.

While this is of course true, there is no reason that end mills cannot be run on machines like this - and 90% of my work is done this way.

Other advantages of those hardinge horizontals, is they can be used a a large gap bed lathe for turning items too big to fit in a small shop lathe. I've chucked up entire mtorocycle wheels in mine to skim the brake drums, no need to unlace them.

Jim

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There are several people who frequent this newsgroup who I'd buy from in a heartbeat. I won't name names, but stay here a while and you'll get to know them. Buying one on one like that is often the best way to buy. Someone else will have to help you with commercial dealer names and reputations in your area, I'm on the other side of the country.

Mills are heavy beasts, and in general, the heavier they are, the better they'll work (and ironically, often the heavier they are, the cheaper they are, because of the large relocation costs). Shipping costs can often make or break a deal. It is often worth it to pay a bit more to buy local just for this reason.

For used equipment particularly, it almost always pays to examine the machine in person before you buy. There are so many things that can be wrong with a used piece of equipment, you want to know before paying that big freight bill. Even if the dealer is good, and will accept a return, you're still stuck with a large freight bill (both ways).

Note too that an honest dealer can have an honestly different opinion of the condition of a machine than you do. Things he might consider no big deal might be heartbreakers to you. Hidden defects that he might not have caught in a visual inspection can also rare up and bite you in the wallet. He might have the necessary repair parts, he might not. (Often as not, the company who made the machine is no longer in business, or no longer supports that model.)

If possible, see the machine run, check all its features to make sure the ones essential to your tasks work. Check for wear in critical areas (know what the critical areas *are*). Etc. And remember, the machine won't look nearly as large in the dealer's warehouse as it will in your small garage. Take a tape measure, make sure you know just how big it really is, and how much open space you need around it to run it. (Don't slight the latter, if you can't get around the machine, you can't run it or service it. Remember how heavy these machines are, once you set it in place, it is *there* for the duration.)

Go here:

to do your homework before going to see a machine. This is the most comprehensive list of machine tools on the web. Also haunt ebay. That'll at least give you an idea of the going price for various machines. (I'm a bit hesitant to actually *buy* a big ticket item on ebay unless the seller is local and I can do an inspection, but it is a good place to get the feel of the market.)

There's also a good series of web articles on buying a used lathe which would also largely apply to buying a used mill. I can't remember the URL off hand, but I think it is on Dave Fricken's site. Perhaps someone else can provide a pointer.

One of the points made in those articles is that someone else's clunker may be just the machine you need. Or conversely, what someone else considers a machine in good shape may be a clunker to you. Only you can determine which is which, and you need to be educated to the qualities of the machine which apply to the tasks to which you'll put the machine in order to make that determination.

(In other words, some qualities of a machine are important to a particular set of tasks. For a different sort of task, different qualities are important. You have to determine if the machine you're examining has the qualities you need, and any other qualities you don't need can then be derated accordingly.)

That probably means you need to read some books on the fundamentals of machining, ask some questions here, and in general find out a lot more about how and why things are done before spending a big chunk of change (don't forget shipping) on some heavy iron.

A machining class, if it uses the type of machine you're considering, might also be a worthwhile investment. But with most such classes today heavily weighted toward operating CNC machining centers, you might have some difficulty finding the right sort of class to attend. You might do better joining a local hobby club and partner up with one of the more experienced members who can give you some practical hands on with his machines.

Gary

Umm. The garage door spring on the quill return is a bit ugly. But the real downside for this machiine is the speed range - if you look the slowest speed is 1000 rpm.

As an example, the back gears in a brigeport go down to about

100 rpm. Without back gears this machine will not be too useful for doing large stuff.

Jim

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Oh right, I should have mentioned this:

While machines like this are large, they can be moved around without too much trouble. I've shifted my small hardinge with nothing but a single pinch bar.

Jim

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I wondered about that. The UK lathes site showed that that model should have three more speeds lower than 1000 RPM - I think down to 180 RPM. I wonder if this is a different model or if something's not working or missing.

Peter

I was looking at this one. What mods have been made?

Peter

Thank you.

Peter

I was just printing these off as you wrote this! Thanks,

OK, this is going to look a bit funny, but, here goes.

You want to make brackets and stuff for your projects. No NASA contracts, no defense industry prototypes. Nothing too critical. No tolerances to a half-zillionth.

Buy the RF-30.

Get one with a R-8 spindle, rather than Morse taper. Mill tooling is MUCH cheaper in R-8, and much more common. Think Ebay and machine tool dealers. Morse taper stuff other than drills is not common. If you can find a supplier that stocks the RF-30 with the taller column, buy that. The extra couple bucks will get you lots more space to use when you need. The rest of the time, it won't be in the way.

For a metalworker that will generally be laying out his lines directly on the stock, and cutting to a line, these are a GREAT bargain. They are a darn useful tool that doubles as a decent drill press (the extra headroom, above, helps when using full length drills). This gives you that much more space in the shop. (small enough space as it is).

I have a Centec 2A. It's a great little milling machine. In 500 lbs of cast iron, and a steel stand, I get slightly more volume to work with than if I had a sherline mill. It has MT-2 tapers (same as my lathes tooling-makes for compatability) in it's vertical and horizontal spindles. It has a power feed. Nice stuff. Not nearly what you will want. All for more than it would have cost me to buy a new RF-30 and tooling. It fills my needs (mostly) and I like it. I would not consider it for what you are describing as your needs. In fact, as I STILL don't have a decent drill press, I am still considering getting a RF-30 for things larger than I can otherwise deal with, on the cheap. The Centec

2B is a bit larger, but not by an amount that you would appreciate. I have used an RF-30 a lot. The inability to hold zero when raising and lowering the head is not as much of a deal as you might think. It makes good fodder for arguing over, though. Again, we are talking about fabbing brackets and such for your projects, not building cylinder heads from billet stock, right?

In my opinion, you will get more table space from an RF-30 than from anything else you can afford, both in cash and space, without getting very lucky. Of course, some of the best machine tool scrounges I've ever heard of are in your neck of the woods. Luck might not be so hard to find in this case. Still tough to beat the amount of capacity, for the amount of shop space used for the RF-30.

The small and medium sizes of horizontal mill have smaller tables, though they have their own advantages. The creativity required to deal with problems on a horizontal mill are not a lot different from dealing with the limitations of the mill drills. The small vertical mills all seem to me to be limited to about 1/2" end mills, and really require a lot more real estate than you seem to be able to afford. You can rarely use the space in the base of a small mill for storage.

Anyway, that's my two bits worth.

In short, look at your "needs" at least as hard as you look at your "wants".

Based on my experiences, I think that you will likely find what you need in the RF-30 mill drill.

Cheers Trevor Jones

As mentioned elsewhere the return spring is definitely cobbled. It also seems to be missing the 3rd pulley, which would extend the speed range from

180 to 3,200 rpm, at least assuming that the two existing pulleys are stock. There is evidence of repairs or maybe hard use (the acorn nut on the Y-axis screw is not standard and one wonders how that got lost) and it is missing the fine feed handle for the spindle. It looks like it has one tool holder and no collets (it came with 7 MT2, 18/" to 1/2"). FWIW, my 8520 is S/N 5664 and was inspected in March 1966 so it looks like this one is quite a bit older, but I've no idea how much older.

There might be other problems, at least according to somone who got a quick look at it. That's just hearsay, though, and I don't know the guy that looked at it. At a wild guess it looks to me like it's priced at about it's value right now, but Reliable auctions often go through the roof at auction end.

Reliable is said to be honest and I've bought from them with no problems, so if you are interested you might want to call them and see if they will give you an honest appraisal. Look at it if you are nearby. If not and you are close enough to pick it up in person, see if they still offer a money-back guarantee (looks like they do). I figure it's a nice gesture to offer to pay the Ebay fees if you are high bidder and they'll let you decline it on inpsection. Shipping weight would run to 700 lbs or more

FWIW, Clausing specified 0.0002" runout on the spindle so that will give you at least one thing to check out if you inspect it. Mine has around 0.005" backlash on the X- and Y-axes which is pretty good for a machine this old.

Mike

That's a pretty convincing argument, Trevor! I agree, you have some good points.

Harold

Exactly.

I'm assuming that the distance from the spindle to the table will tell me whether it's long or short, yes? How much taller is the tall column?

Not what I'd want because it's too small? IOW, it's very stiff but can't work with pieces any bigger than I would with a mini-mill?

All for more than it would have cost me to buy a new RF-30 and

Correct.

I'm talking to one person on this board and will call some new and used machine tool dealers today. If I can't find anything decent used and close within a reasonable period of time, I'll go buy the RF 30 or maybe (probably??) the Penn Tool drill/mill with the dovetail. It's $400 (plus shipping) more than the round column model.

Thanks for your realistic response.

Peter