Are electric cars more energy efficient?

Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 01:48:26 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

My first car was 15 years old when I bought it from Dad. (63 Fairlane) My second car was a year older - a 62 Falcon. Only it was ten years later, so it was a "classic". Then I got a 10 year old Toyota, which I drove for eleven years.

Sigh. I'll know when I get rich because I can afford Suggest Retail Price.

tschus pyotr

Reply to
pyotr filipivich
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Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:11:49 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Diesel hybrids?

I like the idea of a hybrid for those short, around town trips. (Of course, I live where such trips are more possible.) Let the electric motor handle the stop and go traffic, with the gas engine for when you can get up to speed.

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:58:02 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

The classic "Little Old Lady who only drove it to Church." Unless she went to a church fifteen miles away - so that the engine can get up to temps. Or the Salesman forgot to mention the car was formerly owned by a Little old Lady from Pasadena. Who only drive it to the Church of NASCAR, and races it. B-)

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

No, you'll know you're rich when you walk in to the Killing Room at the local Car Stealership and say "See this wad of Green Folding Cash I have here? I already have three other offers for identical vehicles - Forget the Sticker, what's your REAL price?"

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)

My daughter sheared off an 18" power pole with my last one and flipped it onto the roof, but walked away from it. It had a huge dent all the way to the engine block, but the doors still opened and closed perfectly. I was VERY impressed.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

This doesn't work. The Volt has an 18 KVA battery pack, I think. To get 18 KVA from a set of solar cells, you'd need the roof space of a good-sized commercial building. One face of a typical home will get you a couple KW for a few hours a day, so MAYBE a halfway charge overt a full day. A big enough solar cell array to perform a full charge on one day might cost MORE than the car!

37, 35, 40? Are these numbers range on electric power or MPG? The MPG numbers I've seen INLCUDE powering it electrically until the battery is depleted, THEN switching to gasoline, and counting the wall-power as free!

Yep, those batteries are heavy. But, my HCH experience is from 50K + miles in one. I'm certainly a satisfied customer.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

The turbo-alternator exciter can become unstable under extremely light loads, like trying to self-power the plant. The Chernobyl disaster was caused by trying to power the reactor off alternator inertia for a minute while the Diesel generators came up to speed. A special exciter was installed to operate at light load. The alternator slowed down, the line frequency dropped, and the cooling pumps slowed down. Due to the insane design of a VERY dangerous plutonium production reactor repurposed as a commercial power plant, it has a positive void coefficient, ie. if the cooling water boils, the reaction rate goes UP!

So, we use fast-start generators and UPS-like back up power for the cooling pumps, plus huge amounts of water in the reactor and negative void coefficients to guarantee thermal stability.

Yes, so MANY poor decisions a disaster was inevitable. Even a major water leak in the plant could have flooded critical safety systems.

Also, the tsunami knocked out the sea water pumps, and 5 of 6 emergency Diesels were water-cooled.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

Yup, a 1960's US design. Only a couple of that vintage are still running in the US, and not for much longer. I think those have been upgraded a bit on their safety systems, while the Fukushima Dai-ichi #1 had relatively few updates. That reactor had damn little provisions for handling a station blackout condition. The others there had pretty good systems (a steam-turbine operated cooler for removal of residual heat) and all that needed to be provided was battery power to keep the valves open. It would have been better design to have the valves stay where they were set on loss of battery power, or have a little gas generator to keep the battery bank charged. I mean, really, a $500 home power generator could have kept units 2 and 3 from blowing up!

I think all US reactors are higher from the sea, lake or river than those were. Putting the plant THAT close to the sea was just complete idiocy, but once you've made such a huge mistake, it is real hard to change that.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

This is not completely clear, but I think the latter. TEPCO handled all the siting and architectural stuff, and GE provided the reactor system pretty much as a one-price package. Some of the original documents have a mish-mash of English and Japanese measures and labels.

Later plants were apparently done with much more design done by the Japanese.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

(...)

With exceptions. :)

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--Winston

Reply to
Winston

Off the top of my head, of that vintage and type reactor, I can think of Oyster Creek, on Oyster Creek (Barnegat Bay) at 43 ft ASL, and the Brunswick plant on the Cape Fear river at 25 ft ASL. I am sure you can find more.

Kevin Gallimore

Reply to
axolotl

Congratulations you are now qualified to work at the Chevy dealer I visited.

Think energy instead of power. The Volt's useable capacity is about

10kwh ($1 at average utility rate). It takes about 12 hours to charge from a standard 120V outlet or 3 hours from a standard 240V outlet.

Arf arf.

1800 sq ft square single story = single wall face 43.5 ft X 8' = 349 sq ft = about 3.4kw actual X 4 hours average (location dependant) = 13.6kwh. Approximately enough to fully charge the car 7 days per week. Less required if you don't drive every day or use the full battery every day of driving. Example: if your commute is 20 miles round trip then you might only charge 3 times per week and could either live in Seattle or downsize the array to suit.

A full charge on a Volt requires about 13kwh. Note the hour part.

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Some approximate numbers off the top of my head: if one's daily mileage averages half the cars battery range then the array could be about 10 of these or the equivalent plus the usual grid inverter etc.
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size to suit owner's miles and location. I'm considering installing enough for the car and my home's use. PV is cheap right now so I may go overboard and shoot for running a net surplus.

The numbers I used were the gas only numbers.

Sample quote from one of the links I provided in the post you responded to: "The EPA officially gave the Volt a 35 city/40 highway mpg rating without using stored battery power, but in my experience that charge-sustaining fuel economy on the highway was closer to 43 mpg (yes, that's calculated without any grid-filled battery input)" This chart

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is also useful.

Reply to
whoyakidding

I BUY mine with 100000km (60,000 miles) on them about 5 years old - except for this last one that was 10 years old and had 30,000 miles on it. 5-6 thousand bucks a crack - drive them for another 10 years or untill the body falls off. The New Yorker had 240,000 km on it and a solid body when I SOLD it - not scrapped it.

Reply to
clare

I'm betting that you drive far more miles a year than I, because I'm not running up and down California. I average 10,000 to 12,000 miles a year.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

I thought SONGS was way the hell up the hill from the sea, Winnie. I lived 16 miles kinda downwind of it for 36 years. But looking at the pic, I see that they carved the cliffs down and set it closer to sea level. It does look to be at risk, but a seawall would fix that in a hurry for only a few dozen million ducats.

Anyway, those cliffs to the right are at least 80' tall, which is why I thought SONGS was elevated. I only hiked 'em once (rt). OK, I see that they're 30' up.

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I think I'd feel safer with an extra 20' seawall, anyway.

-- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln

Reply to
Larry Jaques

RE: civic?

-- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Jon, please include at least a sentence of the quoted text so we, anyone, will know WTF you're talking about. ;)

-- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln

Reply to
Larry Jaques

That's absolutely the way to do it, but you can fool the jerks with a wad of mostly ones if you want to be dirty about it.

-- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Larry Jaques on Thu, 28 Jun 2012

20:39:41 -0700 typed >

Not my desire. I want to be able to send my driver down to the dealership with some petty cash, and have him pick out a new one. Only this time, he gets to pick the color.

tschus pyotr

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

As the limerick goes:"Perhaps it's a trick of perspective..." :)

It sure looks to be only slightly ASL to me, though. (Shudder).

Yes, that is taller than the 19 - footer at Fukushima.... :)

--Winnie

Reply to
Winston

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