Copper Casting In America (Trevelyan)

Yes.

Right now.

You are back in your 'drongo' mode.

Eric Stevens

I reported on copper said to originate from the Coppermine River region found on Greenland in an earlier post. The river was named for the Copper Inuit (?) who live in this area.

You have to prove there ARE spaces first, you know.

Hmmmm... as in replying to "drongos", presumably..... well you could at least have told us what is between all them electrons and protons you know.... oh and don't forged the quarks.....

Seppo, sorry I missed that ref. you say Greenland, the one I refered to definitely wasn't found in Greenland. Btw there were an Iron blade found with a handle of musk ox and a carpenter's special tool - a wood carpenter's plane(McCullough 1989, pl 73)..... typical trade items don't you agree? :-)

Inger E "Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@not.com.au...

A knife, machete or axe would be "trade goods" - but not a carpenters plane. What would Inuit do with one of them?

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@not.com.au...

Well what would they do with ship rivet, Chain mails(pieces found several places), Chain mail lump, Iron spikes and Axe-blade????

I thought someone here at an early stage spoke of the lack of wood in the Arctic area, Greenland included.....

Inger E

Ahhh.... now a ships rivet and chain-mail, I can understand..... they are JEWELLERY :-)

The Iron spike and axe blade are definitely very useful tools in the Arctic - you know make holes in the ice to fish through.

Sure but then deer antlers and the like can be shaped with steel knives, axe etc - not so good with a plane.

I certainly would agree.

What would they do with one???? Plane wood. What else?

Maybe to *you*. They would have been "raw material" to an Eskimo during that time period. Useful for making tools...

What is this "lack of wood" business?

They've been building skin boats in the Arctic for at least a few thousand years... with wood frames. Each and every one of them with a wood frame. And while ships nails and chain mail might have been seen as simply raw material that could be used to manufacture useful tools, a carpenter's plane would have been seen for exactly what it was, a tool of considerable value.

You all ever heard of drift wood?

Floyd L, you must be joking. Of course a wood carpenter's plane isn't a trade-item at all in trades between Greenlanders and Inuits. Would be good if you read the full article in the book I refered to as a starter instead of joking.

Inger E

"Floyd L. Davids> >> >> > > of musk ox and a carpenter's special tool - a wood carpenter's

First, I don't have access to the full article in the book you read. Regardless, it the article defines or causes others to think in terms of rivets and chain-mail as "jewelary", it can't be taken too seriously.

Second, what you've stated is either predicated on a narrow definition of "trade goods" (and there is no indication in the context of the below discussion which suggests that is the case) or you believe (as the context indicates) that Inuit culture had no wood to work with and/or no use for a wood plane.

I don't buy either of those.

Inuit culture was always very technology oriented, and one of the reasons they survived so well was because they would adapt to any superior technology that became available. When European technology first appeared in the Arctic, the parts that were superior were very quickly adopted and adapted by all Eskimos, Inuit included. (Unfortunately, Europeans were extremely slow to adopt superior technology from Eskimo cultures, or any Native cultures for that matter, and suffered needlessly because of it. In the Arctic that was particularly true.)

A carpenter's plane, just as with *all* steel or iron cutting tools, would have almost instantly become a desired trade item.

Floyd L, you don't know anything about who had or who hadn't carpenter's plane before

In Scandinavia you wouldn't find a carpenter's plane owned by everyone, not even expect to have one for each man in a family. You better learn a bit more about what tools that were common and what wasn't...

Your comments are funny. So funny that is' not worth doing anything but laughing.

Inger E

"Floyd L. Davids> >Floyd L,

Apparently *you* don't know a thing about who did or didn't have carpenter's planes before 1500. In northern Europe they date at least back to the Roman invasions, 700-1000 years *before* the period you are speaking of.

What you can find in a Scandinavian household has *nothing* to do with what would have been aboard the average ship sailing to Greenland in 1400.

Think for a minute! The ships are made of wood. They are *all* equipped for repairs (and for that matter, to build a whole new ship!).

You've got people rolling on the floor now. First you think there is no wood in the Arctic, and conclude that therefore Eskimos wouldn't see any value to having a carpenter's plane. Now you say that because your experience is that not all Scandinavians are carpenter's, there wouldn't have been a carpenter or carpenter's tools on board any ships that colonized Greenland!

All of that would be funny if you were joking, but you are seriously trying to foist this off as pseudo science or something. Maybe next week, but not this time...

Get the drift yet?

The carpenters plane is a common tool known throughout the ancient world in a form virtually unchanged from the toolkits of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Phoenicians, Romans, Persians, and Europeans to the modern day.

It was a trade good and is found along with axes, hammers, hoes, rakes, chisels, gouges, adzes, and weapons like spears, arrows and swords in ancient wrecks that go back to the bronze age.

You can still buy wooden planes made with bronze fittings adjusted with wooden wedges. In terms of whether there is evidence of American Indians using them,

Anyone who has used a scraper knows a plane would be recognized as a betterment and quickly adopted to serve the same purpose. Tools like chisels, gouges, adzes, saws, planes, hammers and axes are found made of stone, iron, and steel but generally not copper or bronze except in the Old Copper Culture of Mn. After Europeans arrived copper and bronze are more commonly used in the east.

I expect most men in most cultures that built anything of wood would have had hammers, saws, chisels, awls and planes as a part of their basic tools.

Can you name a culture where woodworking tools were not as common as say wooden furniture? Tables, chests, chairs, benches, tubs, barrels, boxes, doors, windows, looms, and boats all required planes to build as did a lot of other artifacts common to most cultures.

regards,

steve

Your comments are funny. So funny that is' not worth doing anything but laughing.

snip Link of archaeological interest

stevewhittet, if you belive the Norse type of carpenter plane to be common among Scandinavians in Viking Age to Late Medieval Age in Greenland, then you obviously don't know much. It wasn't a tool you traded. It wasn't a tool you gave away, not even as a wedding gift. If the work Contact, Continuity and Collapse used wrong word, I don't know. I know that the carpenter plane found was of a Scandinavian type and that it wasn't a tool no one would think to leave behind either neither here in Scandinavia or elsewhere.

Inger E "stevewhittet" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@adelphia.com...

Floyd L, I wonder which type of carpenter's plane you are believing we are talking about. Found a photo of an alike at a Hembygdsmuseum(a district's local museum) look at the 'hyvel' in the bottom:

This wasn't a tool anyone from Scandinavia would trade. It wasn't a tool you would expect to be used outside the farm where the owner had it or if the owner belonged to a Guild which had started in 14th century(or earlier), he wouldn't dream to give it to an other person at all.

And you know there weren't so much Driftwood on Ellesmere Island that you needed to bring one with you there.

Inger E

"Floyd L. Davids> >Floyd L,

Snicker. Keep trying... the fact is that *anything* on a ship that had metal in it (never mind sharp metal) was by definition a "trade item".

Start looking at *shipwright* tools and stop worrying about a bunch of Scandinavian farmers. For Goodness Sakes, by the time period you are talking about there were all sorts of fancy, ornate planes of rather artistic design all over Europe.

And you know, that's beyond your scope of imagination. But since I live about 400 yards from the Arctic Ocean, I'll be happy to tell you that there is indeed enough driftwood to allow people to build wood frames from skin boats. Not to mention that it was a major source of structural material for igloos (aka, sod houses). You might be able to believe that fitting wood pieces together for a house would be typical use for a plane; but I suppose the fact that a plane would be *many* times more useful in the construction of an umiaq frame is probably not within your limited grasp. Let me explain: a skin boat frame cannot have any rough edges, nor can it have ill fitted parts, else it sinks.

Do you even know what a plane is used for?

You can't support that statement with facts. Every carpenter, shipwright, and cooper had not just one plane, but probably a number of them.

Why not? They aren't *that* ugly!

That is purely conjecture on your part. And clearly not well considered.

First of all you are not able to recognise levity even when a smiley is used. Further to that YOU have NO IDEA what they used them for. None what ever, and therefor cannot scoff and sneer at ANY suggested use. Therefor YOU cannot be taken seriously. Further to that I haven't heard anything so absurd as suggesting "chain mail" being used "for making tools"!!

You are quoting... who exactly and from where? Are you saying there were forests on Greenland - Ellesmere Island in particular?

The "arctic" wasn't referred to - but GREENLAND was. There were no trees on Greenland at the relevant time.

Bullshit! First of all provide some proof that boat building (using WOOD) occurred on Greenland AND that is has been done "for at least a few thousand years". You can't, can you.

So, where is your evidence of your claims? Please tell us all what "tool" one can make out of a small piece of chain mail.

A carpenters plane isn't a TRADE GOODS for the several simple reasons.

- It was an essential tool for any ship's carpenter on a ship.

- The steel blade may have been of use as a knife or axe, but then why not trade those - or any piece of scrap steel?

Yes..... have you heard of ship worms? "Fire wood"? Supply problems? Water logged?