Dishwashing machines need phosphates



TMT, you paint the subject with too broad a brush.
IF you specify a particular chemical, you may say, "This does (or does not) stay in the water." Not all chemicals do, and household bleach - which was mentioned - is one of the ones that completely decomposes, quickly.
Don't fall into believing the nanny-state mantra that ALL things artificial are automatically permanent pollutants. They aren't.
LLoyd
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message

TMT, you paint the subject with too broad a brush.
IF you specify a particular chemical, you may say, "This does (or does not) stay in the water." Not all chemicals do, and household bleach - which was mentioned - is one of the ones that completely decomposes, quickly.
Don't fall into believing the nanny-state mantra that ALL things artificial are automatically permanent pollutants. They aren't.
LLoyd
==================I guess you must be saying that chlorine is OK to inhale then.
Quite moronic. I can't see it so it must be OK.
--
Eric


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Eric wrote:

...
...
He's not saying that at all. Or implying it. Where do you get that?
Bob
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    For you, it might just be.
    But the assumption that the sole source compounds is human activity is ludicrous. As is the assumption that things do not break down.
    I'd be interested how TMT figures that what gets flush will some how windup up hill of the water intake.     Actually, I wouldn't.
tschus pyotr
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pyotr filipivich
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pyotr filipivich wrote:

Pumps would be the answer to your question.
If you have indoor plumbing the chances are good that the water coming out of the faucet was pumped from somewhere much lower down
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    Ah, so the sewer plant is upstream of the water plant?
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pyotr filipivich
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:13:04 -0800, Jon Anderson

I've been on septic systems since I moved out of my parents' house. Soap, paper, and bleach are bad for the system, so I go minimal when possible. But my backside puts out enough healthy bacteria for the septic system to continue doing its thing despite my laundry days, so don't worry too much about it.
-- Win first, Fight later.
--martial principle of the Samurai
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You forgot the real enemy, grease. If it gets into the leach field....
I would imagine phosphates would encourage more plant growth in the leach field, eventually clogging it. I know some areas require 2 fields and a valve so you can alternate; presumably the one lying fallow uses up enough nitrogen to solve the issue.
Year+ agd, befire the crash, WashPost had an article on developer-built housing out past Dulles. They could not pass perc testing so they built sand mound septic systems instead.
New homeowners soon found out they were VERY limited re: detergents, bleach, etc that the mounds could handle. They were going into town to use a laundromat, etc.
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I have a newer septic and it has a filter installed that is supposed to eliminate most of the problems, when it isn't plugged or displaced...LOL
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"David Lesher" wrote in message news:ivfp23$iss$ snipped-for-privacy@reader1.panix.com...
You forgot the real enemy, grease. If it gets into the leach
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Jon Anderson wrote:

The quarter cup of bleach you use in a load of laundry that gets flushed into the 1,000 gal septic system tank along with another 30-40 gal of water will have little effect on the overall bacteria level. Pour a full gallon of bleach down the drain and you might have a problem.
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I have the same Savogran stuff. Is the 70% new? Powdered products for home use often have such things as anti-clumping ingredients in them. Anyway, it does work.

So far, the washing machine has not been a problem, although we do seem to be getting far more tiny lint than before.

There is a big difference here. For the clothes washing machine in the old days, we used a cup per load, or more. Even then, dishwashers used far less detergent, because they use a puddle at the bottom of the tank, versus filling the tank to the top. Now days, the detergent volume is far less.
On the Bosch, one uses something like 20 milliliters of detergent for ordinary loads, this being the volume of the well at the lowest marker line. The pinch of TSP has to be less than a gram.

If this is true, and it certainly could be, I sense a market opportunity here.
Joe Gwinn
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Look at the product number on the box, and then go here:
http://www.savogran.com/Information/msds_index.htm
Mine is 10621. The MSDS says 75 - 80% TSP.

You'd think so, but having written ad copy and having done the account work for a couple of supermarket products, all I can tell you is that the business costs of those things is very strange. You pay for shelf exposure, so you need to pass a volume threshhold before you can afford to market it. That's what held up Oakite on bringing back their powdered household detergent, which started out around a century ago as nearly pure TSP and then was dropped when liquid detergents took over. It would have cost at least $10 million to get it off the ground, and the projected volumes were not high enough to justify it.
It did have a market as a niche product and I was working on selling it through hardware stores, which is a much cheaper marketing proposition. But they had other products in the pipeline and they decided to go with those, which promised higher volumes.
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:35:11 -0400, Joseph Gwinn

I heard that TSP was hard on clothing. I use Simple Green and/or borax and bleach for my whites with good effect.

Nowadays, it is far more concentrated.
-- Progress is the product of human agency. Things get better because we make them better. Things go wrong when we get too comfortable, when we fail to take risks or seize opportunities. -- Susan Rice
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Joseph Gwinn wrote:

The horizontal or tilt drum washers use vastly less detergent and water, than the top load units.
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Bullshit!
They use less, if you like dirty clothes. Too many people have experienced them and the trend is to go back to normalcy. Haven't you noticed how the three and four times the price front loads are down to the same prices now? The same thing happened in the 50-60s with front loads. This isn't the first time the public has been conned by slick sales people, only to return to the old way they came from with thinner wallets.
-----------------
"Pete C." wrote in message
The horizontal or tilt drum washers use vastly less detergent and water, than the top load units.
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    Tain't just slick sales people, it is Energy Star ratings. Seems that the top loaders "just use too much water and electricity", so to get their usage down. the manufacturers have gone to front loaders. All things combined, they do not get clothes clean.     Consumer Reports has a recent article about this, that they have been unable to recommend an top loader model, due to this failure to get clothes clean. Which is a result of the EPA/et al mandate to lower "energy usage".     It doesn't help if I have to wash clothes twice to get them half clean.
    Fortunately, I 'm a career bachelor. If they don't stand up by themselves, or aren't a hazard to have in contact with the skin, "good enough".
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The units that have an "Energy Star" rating purchased for them shows the manufacturers can't sell them.
"Energy Star" trademarks do not indicate the most efficient appliances only the ones they are trying to squeeze more money, on the sale, out of. The real MPG is in the user's corner and most won't touch a front load next time. They use the same amount of water and take four hours to do their 15 cycles to save the water. Poor reasoning
If consumers or manufacturers really wanted to save water they would only purchase machines with suds savers on them. Try to find one. The phony eco-concern is only marketing hype to make you unhappy with your old obsolete machine in white.
eco = economics for the manufacturer.
--------
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
Tain't just slick sales people, it is Energy Star ratings. Seems that the top loaders "just use too much water and electricity", so to get their usage down. the manufacturers have gone to front loaders. All things combined, they do not get clothes clean. Consumer Reports has a recent article about this, that they have been unable to recommend an top loader model, due to this failure to get clothes clean. Which is a result of the EPA/et al mandate to lower "energy usage". It doesn't help if I have to wash clothes twice to get them half clean.
Fortunately, I 'm a career bachelor. If they don't stand up by themselves, or aren't a hazard to have in contact with the skin, "good enough".
--
pyotr filipivich
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pyotr filipivich wrote:

My front load tilt drum washer works very well, no problems getting clothes clean. The high speed spin cycle sounds like the machine is trying to go into orbit, but it gets the laundry quite dry before the dryer and saves more energy.
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If you have a swampy smell, there is some sort of decaying matter causing it. I do not know about Bosch, but in my Kenmore there is a coarse grate above the macerator, a slight finer grate next to the macerator blade , and a fine screen to filter recirculated water. All of these can trap chunks of food, especially fibrous stuff. I have to take it apart and clean them now and then.
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I did look - they were all clean, mostly because I pre-rinse the heavy stuff right into the disposal.
Joe Gwinn
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