Dishwashing machines need phosphates

I should add that the particular problem in the Spokane River was that baby salmon weren't surviving because of the eutrification and low oxygen levels.

ACI notes that there are some performance issues, which can be solved by observing these points: 1) Make sure your water temp is at least 120 F (mine is 140 at the dishwasher). 2) Don't use too much detergent. If you have an old dishwasher, about half as much as the cups will hold is about right. 3) If you have water spots, chances are your water is hard. The guy I talked to told me he'd just returned from Ireland, where the water is very hard and they have water softeners *built in* to the dishwashers.

If you have accumulated cloudiness, you may need to do a periodic vinegar treatment. Here's how they describe it:

You may also be interested in this:

Fortunately, there probably isn't enough used to cause any problems.

Note that the ACI FAQ, I think, mentions that there are not laws against

*using* the stuff. The laws mostly regulate retail sale. My contact guy said that all big detergent manufacturers took phosphates out, but there may be some local ones in the states that don't regulate it, selling to the local market.

Nationwide, the ag use is by far the dominant source of phosphorus in rivers and streams. In heavily built-up areas, like around my beloved Delaware, residential cleaning use is the dominant source, with the Delaware apparently being an extreme, but not actually an outlying, example.

My contact guy is an exec. with ACI in charge of this subject there, with over 20 years of industry experience. I think that further questions would have to be directed to the EPA. I know that there is some detailed research available that they used in their analysis. I just don't know what it is.

And, without a paying article to write about it, my work is done here. d8-) It is quite interesting. Having followed water pollution issues in my area, I always find it interesting, because the real research so often refutes the conventional wisdom. And it's a consequential subject.

Which reminds me that it's time to get out my son's microscope and do a species count of plankton in a local pond again. When he was in middle school, he did a science project that was based on some scientific data that ranks water quality on the basis of relative species counts. Local water-quality officials were very interested. Too few paramecia and too many cyclops, and you have trouble.

Coming into this a little late, but... I use "Cascade Complete" liquid, which is phosphate free (and ridiculously expensive). I use the "extra heat" setting on my dishwasher, which preheats the water. My dishes (and glasses) are very clean.

Was this due to dishwashers, or farmers?

More weekend reading.

All of the above ACI advice was mentioned on the various blogs I read when researching the stink problem, although I don't recall that people knew where the advice came from. I did all of those things, including the vinegar, to little avail.

The built-in water softener makes sense. The big variable in reports of trouble in the US is how hard the local water is, and a major purpose of the phosphate was precisely to handle hard water.

But I wonder what chemicals are used in the built-in softeners.

Most likely because there are far more users than sellers, so policing sellers is easier.

And we were trying to give meaning to your life, a focus, something to aspire to.

Think globally, act locally? But the trend would be interesting.

Joe Gwinn

I'll leave that for your research to uncover. Remember, nationwide figures don't tell you much about individual rivers, as I've learned through this exercise.

Those are short.

My contact said "salt," so I assume it's similar to the water softeners we have here.

Well, that, and that is the way that many such regulations are handled. You go for the source and you don't want to stick consumers with the problem of what to do with what they already have. Retailers had plenty of time to clear their inventory.

Keep in mind, too, that many environmental regulations are based on percentages, and there are loopholes all over the place for people who need to use something that is banned, with the recognition that a few motivated and determined users of most troublesome chemicals are not the problem. It's the mass markets that are the problem.

Uh, it's more a habit of mind developed from several decades of research. I don't like not knowing things that are important to know.

The relative plankton measures are an indirect way to measure overall water quality. It's quick and it corresponds well to some broad indexes -- particularly dissolved oxygen, but also some common toxins. You don't have to count organisms per unit volume of water, only their relative incidence. So sampling and preparation of samples is simple and cheap.

It makes a great science project for a kid who's reached the stage where they can follow the connections.

Well, based on what I have already found,that 95% goes into agriculture, I'm going with farmers.

But not sweet.

Salt is certainly plausible. But the ion exchange process cannot destroy calcium and magnesium, so these are going into the effluent. But it may not matter.

But isn't this the key question? In other words, why chase < 0.5%?

We're here to help...

I don't know how it works with paramecia and cyclops, but a big discovery in the last decade or two is that ocean bacteria are largely limited by bacteriophages, which are viruses that infect bacteria. If it were not for the phages, the bacteria would cover the Earth with goo.

Joe Gwinn

.....

But this says little about how much P gets into water bodies. Virtually all the P in detergents leaves the point of use via wastewater. The farmers' interest lies in maximizing uptake of P by plants and minimizing loss by leaching or erosion.

........

Where's this .5% come from?

BTW, we found the new Cascade formulas lacking, but a generic brand (Home 360?) from the local Hannaford works fine.

All true, but farmers use tons of fertilizer, while homes use pounds of detergent.

You might wish to read the beginning of the thread. It's all there.

Hmm. There is a Hannaford nearby.

What I've been using is plain old Cascade plus a pinch of TSP, and this does work.

Joe Gwinn

Maybe you already found this (shrug), but...

or

We have a walk-in/open to the public restaurant supplier in town that claims to have it in stock. Thought it may give you some ideas to ponder...

How big a "pinch"? I am adding about a teaspoon full - probably too much! Gerry :-)} London, Canada

I think I'm using about 1/4 teaspoon, but how much is needed will depend on the local water, so experiment a bit.

Joe Gwinn

Cascade with phosphate is available, but in large cartons. restockit.com seemed to be the main internet source. The Amazon stuff didn't actually say it contained phosphate.

I recall a different carton, which has "with Phosphates" in bold letters, so I am unsure what these webpages are showing.

I live in the Boston area, and I have to believe that there is a local restaurant supply house that has the real stuff over the counter.

Joe Gwinn