Do modern engines last longer?

I tend to agree with you to some degree, however, as consumers our expectations have gone up over the years. It wasn't that long ago that cars were worn out at 20K miles, and that automobiles came with instructions that told you how to repair the babbit bearings in the engines yourself. Now, a car with 200K miles is normal, even barely broken in. Machines made by craftsman who understood the fine details of quality machinery were rare and highly sought after, as they had under one hat engineering, design, assembly, and maintenance skills, but they couldn't make them very fast or very cheap. Now these skills are most commonly segregated to individuals, with less and less having all those abilities at one time. Competition has ensured that quality and endurance are important, as well as cost. Modern automotive engines are designed and can be easily reproduced with tolerances unattainable not that long ago, and the tight tolerances, combined with carefully worked out assembly processes ensure that the cost comes down with little to no loss in quality. During the Civil War, every citizen soldier had his own musket, each of a slightly different caliber, so they had to cast their own bullets, and repairing them was difficult due to lack of interchangeability. Mass manufacturing methods not that long afterwards resulted in rifles being crafted in great numbers with precision, which drove the cost down and the deadliness of warfare up.

That said, all engineering design is a compromise. Quite often a lower quality part is selected for a car or other machinery because it keeps the cost down. Rarely do we notice these things, and when we do, it's often a big deal. If money is not object, someone somewhere will build you the machine you want with the very best components that you want, but it will cost a lot of money, be hard to find parts for, and only used by limited numbers of people. We as consumers also have to make a compromise based on our needs, wants, and wallet, and while I'd like to have a Bugatti in the driveway, I don't have the money or a practical need for it. I just need a car I can rack up the miles on with low maintenance (as compared to my Triumphs...) and do everything else I need it to do.

short answer, "yes", at least for automotive use. I have 1936, 1938, 1951,

1959, 1985, 1986, 1993, 1997, and 2001 vehicles under my purview. up through the 51 year car, 150K miles or so was the limit - at that point the bores were 40 to 60 over, rings shot, no compression, crank oval, no oil pressure, etc. 59 is good for 200K easy. there was a major change in the metalurgy of the engine block, etc, as I understand it - we can debate what changed, but the longevity is just not an issue

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I would think advances in metalurgy, newer more ridgid machines that can hold closer tolerances in making your engine parts, and oil designed with better additive packages would tend to improve engine life. The electronics are a plus in my mind. I don't miss setting breaker points and checking timing.

Fuel injection sure beats carburation and with the emissions requirements, we have sensors that monitor a/f ratio to allow the computer to adjust engine parameters for good performance. They are tilted toward lower emissions.

And recent vehicals have ODBII which I have found very helpful in spotting a problem before it becomes serious.

I think they are better. But if you want any engine, new or old to last, change the oil often. My car has a light that comes on every 5500 miles that tells me to change the oil, I change the oil far sooner than that.

Wes

I ran two little 72cc Honda 4 stroke motorcycles for years. (one replaced the other) both ran for 15,000 to 17,000 miles and were run at 6,000 rpm at top speeds of 60km/hr in traffic. They got necessary servicing and were utterly reliable.

these were replaced by a kawasaki BR250 that I ran for 10 years. it developed an incredible engine vibration so I had it torn down and the problem resolved and rebuilt. it turned out that one of the main ball bearing cages has broken up. I got a "you've gotta come and see this" call from the guy doing the work. at 80,000km I think, the honing marks werent even scuffed on the cylinder bore, there was no corrosion anywhere in the galleries of the engine, in short once the faulty parts were replaced the engine went back together in new condition. the BR has gone through a number of owners since I sold it, the current owner has it in pride of place in his lounge as a classic bike.

I rate the hondas as little engines. I flogged the daylights out of them and never once did they cause me problems.

engines since the 70's have been absolutley reliable if you service them.

btw Hyundai has an engine in the excel which is embossed on the engine as suitable for 150,000km without adjustment. that says something.

I'm sure it is in the metallurgy and the QA. but yes my experience is that my engines have lasted far far longer than my fathers. Stealth Pilot

The Toyota 22re what a great engine, energizer bunny indeed keeps going and going..... They did have a few flaws, ie. timing chain tensioners but resolveable, seen more than afew with 300k and still running.

Fuel injection is really one of the greatest improvement towards longevity. Carbs tend to run rich washing down the cylinder walls with gas, which is not a good lubericant. ED

Christopher Tidy wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@cantabgold.net:

I can't vouch for lawnmower engines, but for automobile engines, the designed life expectancy is ever climbing. I work as an engineer in the automotive engine design and manufacturing industry. The designed life expectancy of engine components for most manufacturers is 150,000 miles minimum, some are higher, some slightly lower, but pretty much the standard is 150k. These components must go 150k before any appreciable wear is shown. This means the actual useful life of the components is closer to 200-250k (or beyond). Emissions laws pushed this to begin with, since the vehicle is required to still pass emissions at 100k minimum. But the quality aspect also played a role.

Bernie wrote: "During the Civil War, every citizen soldier had his own musket, each of a slightly different caliber, so they had to cast their own bullets, and repairing them was difficult due to lack of interchangeability. Mass manufacturing methods not that long afterwards resulted in rifles being crafted in great numbers with precision, which drove the cost down and the deadliness of warfare up."

Buncha crap, Bernie. Muskets and ammunition were mass produced during the civil war period. I read your post with some interest until I got to that part. It totally denigrated anything else you had to say. The "one bad apple in the barrel thing", don't you know.

Bob Swinney

"Carl M" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... On Aug 1, 8:28 pm, Christopher Tidy wrote:

I tend to agree with you to some degree, however, as consumers our expectations have gone up over the years. It wasn't that long ago that cars were worn out at 20K miles, and that automobiles came with instructions that told you how to repair the babbit bearings in the engines yourself. Now, a car with 200K miles is normal, even barely broken in. Machines made by craftsman who understood the fine details of quality machinery were rare and highly sought after, as they had under one hat engineering, design, assembly, and maintenance skills, but they couldn't make them very fast or very cheap. Now these skills are most commonly segregated to individuals, with less and less having all those abilities at one time. Competition has ensured that quality and endurance are important, as well as cost. Modern automotive engines are designed and can be easily reproduced with tolerances unattainable not that long ago, and the tight tolerances, combined with carefully worked out assembly processes ensure that the cost comes down with little to no loss in quality. That said, all engineering design is a compromise. Quite often a lower quality part is selected for a car or other machinery because it keeps the cost down. Rarely do we notice these things, and when we do, it's often a big deal. If money is not object, someone somewhere will build you the machine you want with the very best components that you want, but it will cost a lot of money, be hard to find parts for, and only used by limited numbers of people. We as consumers also have to make a compromise based on our needs, wants, and wallet, and while I'd like to have a Bugatti in the driveway, I don't have the money or a practical need for it. I just need a car I can rack up the miles on with low maintenance (as compared to my Triumphs...) and do everything else I need it to do.

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Sorry. My retort should have been directed to carl m, or whoever the pseudonym was. My newsreader must have appended the wrong name. Apologies to Bernie.

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message news:7e66c$489473e0$ snipped-for-privacy@news.teranews.com... Bernie wrote: "During the Civil War, every citizen soldier had his own musket, each of a slightly different caliber, so they had to cast their own bullets, and repairing them was difficult due to lack of interchangeability. Mass manufacturing methods not that long afterwards resulted in rifles being crafted in great numbers with precision, which drove the cost down and the deadliness of warfare up."

Buncha crap, Bernie. Muskets and ammunition were mass produced during the civil war period. I read your post with some interest until I got to that part. It totally denigrated anything else you had to say. The "one bad apple in the barrel thing", don't you know.

Bob Swinney

"Carl M" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... On Aug 1, 8:28 pm, Christopher Tidy wrote:

I tend to agree with you to some degree, however, as consumers our expectations have gone up over the years. It wasn't that long ago that cars were worn out at 20K miles, and that automobiles came with instructions that told you how to repair the babbit bearings in the engines yourself. Now, a car with 200K miles is normal, even barely broken in. Machines made by craftsman who understood the fine details of quality machinery were rare and highly sought after, as they had under one hat engineering, design, assembly, and maintenance skills, but they couldn't make them very fast or very cheap. Now these skills are most commonly segregated to individuals, with less and less having all those abilities at one time. Competition has ensured that quality and endurance are important, as well as cost. Modern automotive engines are designed and can be easily reproduced with tolerances unattainable not that long ago, and the tight tolerances, combined with carefully worked out assembly processes ensure that the cost comes down with little to no loss in quality. That said, all engineering design is a compromise. Quite often a lower quality part is selected for a car or other machinery because it keeps the cost down. Rarely do we notice these things, and when we do, it's often a big deal. If money is not object, someone somewhere will build you the machine you want with the very best components that you want, but it will cost a lot of money, be hard to find parts for, and only used by limited numbers of people. We as consumers also have to make a compromise based on our needs, wants, and wallet, and while I'd like to have a Bugatti in the driveway, I don't have the money or a practical need for it. I just need a car I can rack up the miles on with low maintenance (as compared to my Triumphs...) and do everything else I need it to do.

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In additions to metallurgical advances, there have also been major, good changes in lubricating oil and manufacturing precision.

I was talking to a friend who runs an engine rebuilding business, specializing in rebuilding antique and classic engines. I told him I was looking for plastigauge in a parts store, but they didn't even know what it was.

He said he does not check clearances on new bearings when using new cranks, or even when he has turned a crank himself and measures journals. He says bearings, and new cranks, are the nominal size the mfg says they are, to a perfectly adequate precision, not like years ago. He says measurement capability and machining operations are much improved today.

Don't forget also that the specific power output has climbed and fuel consumption fallen.

I learned to drive in 1960 on my father's 100E Ford Prefect (UK model). It had an 1172 cc engine which gave 36 bhp and a 0-60 time of 29 seconds. As I remember, it did about 28 mpg on a long run. Recommended oil changes at 300 miles, 1000 miles then every 5000 miles, and remove cylinder heard and decarbonise at every 12,000 miles.

Compare that with any modern 1.1 litre car engine.

Absolutely. Mercedes took an engine with a lifespan of appx.120K miles and installed mechanical injection and it then would live for appx. 250K. Engine management is the key, instead of limping around with improper jetting for 15 years an FI system makes changes as needed and now alerts you to problems. Dodge decided it's engines were running so well that they could save money on cyl heads and returned tre 1930's system of boring the seats directly into the iron, drastically reducing longetivety on it's engines and keeping automotive machinist's families fed.

Sure. Today they are made under computer control, instead of union workers.

seudonym was. =A0My newsreader

snipped-for-privacy@news.teranews.com...

the civil war period. =A0I read

grated anything else you had

"Gunner Asch" wrote: Eli Whitney was the father of "weapons interchangability" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yeah. He invented the cotton gun.

I believe the elimination of lead from the gasoline has done a lot to eliminate engine wear. (Except valve guides.)

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:48:38 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

I received copies of a dozen headlines in an email this morning. None of us can figure out how these buffoons graduated high school and/or college. Here's the text of a few relating to this thread offshoot:

1) Volunteers Search for Old Civil War Planes 2) Federal Agents Raid Gun Shop, Find Weapons

One Atta Boy going his way! Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Here's the mother: (you gotta see this)

Gunner Asch wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

In the US maybe, but he was 20 years behind, gasp, the french (Blanc) and whitney never actually actually implemented or even designed a manufacturing process capable of producing his guns with interchangeable parts. He did show the need and did the congressional display entirely with hand made parts.