Do modern engines last longer?

There have been some with steel liners, including the 215 cu. in. (3.5 liter) Buick/Olds/Pontiac aluminum V8 of the early '60s (which became an engine used in the Jeep Wagoneer a few years later, and was then sold to Rover in England, where it was used in the Land Rover and the 3500 Rover sedan, plus the Morgan +8 and the MGD, IIRC. And, with different liners and heads it won Formula 1 world championships in '66 and '67. Quite an engine!) Those liners were ribbed on the outside and cast in place. The F1 version, built by Revco of Australia, had pressed-in, dry-sleeve iron liners.

High-performance diesels, including some Caterpillar numbers, use nodular iron liners rather than gray cast iron. They have different oil-retaining properties, as well as a lot more strength.

Gray iron is somewhat porous, especially when surface graphite wears off, but the graphite doesn't stand proud of the surface. It does get involved in marginal lubrication conditions, however.

-- Ed Huntress

Yet we all know we pay more for gas with alcohol around here. When the newsclowns announce the national average price of gas, it's usually a dime less than we pay.

I was getting about 24 mpg in my '01 Outback Sport on "reformulated" gas. When I would be going on a trip outside the area that required it, I would let my tank go down to almost empty, enough to get to the stations that still sold non alcohol gas. I would fill up there and again when I came back, so my tank would be almost free of alcohol. Then I get 28-30 mpg.

Supposedly, the alcohol lowers the CO2 emissions. Does that take into account the fact that I have to burn 12 gallons to cover the same distance as 10 gallons of ordinary lead free?

David

Gotcha:

Best wishes,

Chris

One note on the Al engines. I had the front blow out of the water jacket when the thin wall over heated or what I think eroded through due to the quality of water or acid generation.

Noting like driving 60 MPH on an interstate and dump the radiator out the front of the block within seconds. Talk about a steam cloud.

I saw racks of engine blocks when I towed in my truck. GM knew something, but was not willing to do anything. I think the engine was widely used and the cost was out of sight.

Now they went to 'orange' juice and water - still is rust, not much.

Martin

Mart> Christ>>>

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Octane booster - my eye. I lost 6-10 MPG using that crap. In the hills it was worse and didn't boost. After an hour on the highway you would see it drip out of car pipes. Ground water pollution is still a serious problem.

Martin

Mart> On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 10:38:52 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,

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Cast Iron is a generic description. The actual alloys used are know to the casting companies and the automakers. Kind of like steel, there are a huge number of alloys but most folks still call it steel.

It depends on the engine. I have seen blocks with cast iron and with cast steel as well as with extruded steel. Depends on what the engine is used for and what the fuel is. The main reason the cast iron is used is because of the grain it has, it retains oil well and wears very well. The next reason is cost. Because of the complex internal structures a machined block would be VERY expensive. It would also take much longer to make. The only real advantage would be that all the wall thicknesses would be known. That is one item that can bite you with a cast iron block. If that core shifted and you have a thin wall you can destroy the block if you punch through the wall.

No, most emissions are measured at idle and MPT is _not_ considered. That's how the PTBs have been able to pull off the scam so well. Most people don't figure their gas mileage anyway.

(PTBs = Powers That Be)

-- Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. -- Eleanor Roosevelt

This isn't something I made up, it was taught to me by an engineer back in my mechanic schooling days..

My own experience supports it. I have gotten twice the life out of FI engines (350 chevys) VS carbed versions. Were there other factors? , yea I'm sure but FI/computerized engines last longer... ED

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "Leo Lichtman" wrote on Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:26:31 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :

LOL. Is that anything like the Potato Gin?

Whitney's attempts at mass production were funded by the US Congress. Naturally, he went way over budget, and way over schedule, and did not quite deliver what he had proposed. But he did get much of the basic work done.

tschus pyotr

-- pyotr filipivich "I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender whether they served zombies he said, ?Sure, what'll you have?'" from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

That isn't an advantage if you're Buick, Olds, or Pontiac.

Dry. They were also quite thin, and they flex a bit if you try to make a serious race motor out of them. That's why Revco and others installed thicker, cast iron dry liners. For the F1 formula, where they were used in Brabham F1 cars (350 hp on gasoline, at the end of their development), they also had to sleeve it down from 3.5 liters to 3.0 liters.

There was a good reason for making them thin, and it was the same reason they were cast in place, and also the same reason they were ribbed on the outside. One of the problems with dry ferrous liners in an aluminum engine is the difference in the coefficient of thermal expansion in the two metals. The thinner lining was more compliant, and the ribs kept them from loosening after years of thermal cycling.

It was a very clever and effective engine. But it was expensive to produce. That's why Buick replaced it with their similar-sized V6, which had been a truck engine, after two years.

GM sold the aluminum V8 to AMC, but they couldn't afford it after their fortunes turned sour, and they sold it back to GM. GM didn't really want it so they sold it to Rover of the UK. Rover used them for years in the Land Rover. It's still the basis for the engine they're using now, although it's been extensively redesigned. The engine was gravity-cast (low pressure die casting) in cast steel molds. You could pick up two of the empty blocks, one under each arm, and walk around with them. Some hotrodders bored and stroked them to 302 cid.

-- Ed Huntress

It seems a pity to cast the liners in. By doing that you throw away one of the great advantages of having a liner: the fact that it can be replaced to remedy wear.

Those liners that are cast in, are they dry liners or wet liners?

Best wishes,

Chris

Indeed. I guess the boundary between cast iron and steel is vague rather than distinct.

Best wishes,

Chris

So I can burn 10 gallons of gas or 12 gallons of gasohol, which costs more to go the same distance. This question has been bugging me for several years and I've tried to research it it, but didn't know where to look. This is the first time that I've received confirmation that I'M BEING SCAMMED!!

David

I remember going around the Rover K series plant when it was new, a 1.1l or 1.4l 4 pot, and I could pick up the entire block single handed at arms length it was that light. The Buick/Rover block is somewhat legendary in the UK as it has in many cases double the capacity of UK CI engines that weigh the same or more.

Yes, I remember some heavy old British engines. The Jaguar 3.4 liter XK weighed more than the 6 liter, cast-iron Chevy V8. And there were some other

They were tough, though.

-- Ed Huntress

Yep, Light weight and the blocks also could be polished up nice as well. I still have one of the 215s and one of the Pontiac OHC 6s from those years. One of these days I'll come up with a unique vehicle to put them in. (almost had a nice 34 3 window Buick, it was sold the day I was going to look at it &**^%$*&T%T)

Eh, too bad. That Pontiac 6 must be a rare number by now. That was the first US engine with a Gilmer-belt drive for an overhead cam.

-- Ed Huntress

Actually, the advent of unleaded fuel HAS improved the lifespan of engines, significantly. It's not the lead that made the difference, but the phosphorous and other compounds that were required to keep the lead from sticking to everything. Phosphouric and phosphourous acids were produced whch etched and ate all kinds of engine parts. Plugs and exhaust have perhaps benefitted most, but valves, rings and bearings have benefitted as well. The forced move to induction hardened or stellite seats even made the valves last longer. When's the last time you heard of a properly maintained engine requiring a valve job????

Change was from cast iron to cast steel. Many different alloys have been added to engine block steel over the years - including Molybdenum and nickel. And Chromium, and Vanadium. Chilled castings are also used in some applications, apparently.