Is our view of old engineering distorted by the products which survive?

Hi folks,

I apologise if the title is a bit of a mouthful. But I've been thinking about this issue for some time, and would like to seek the opinion of people here. You frequently hear people complain about the quality of modern products and say things like "They don't make them like they used to". But it has occurred to me that maybe older products look good today because only the good products have stood the test of time, and the poor products have been thrown away years ago. What do people think? Were products better in general back in the fifties, say, or were there a mixture of good and bad? I'd be interested to hear people's opinions, as I'm not old enough to remember myself.

Best wishes,

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy
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No problem. Some people here are so old that we can't remember, either.

It's a mixed bag. Cars are much better, and fishing reels are, too. But wooden matches have gone to hell. Toasters today are complete crap compared to the old ones.

What I think you'll find is that the quality of goods has risen or fallen to match the consumers' expectations and desires, with a strong influence coming from the fact that people don't really *want* things to last that long anymore.

Now I'll get out of the way as the blizzard of messages sweeps into this thread...

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Having experienced some antique furniture that was pure crap from the day it was made.

Yes, I think a lot of it is just that what we see has been sorted by its quality.

Reply to
Tim Wescott

Engineers and manufacturing do the best they can given the cost and schedule constraints placed upon them. Global competition has brought considerably sharper focus on how to make products that consumers will buy in volume.

In some niche markets, they make 'em better than they used to. Example: production rifles that will shoot 1/2 MOA right out of the box are quite common now. This kind of accuracy was only available in customized and "accurized" rifles not that many years ago.

Why? Mostly because CNC machining (and designs to exploit it) can produce better accuracy at lower cost than previous production methods.

Reply to
Don Foreman

The cheap/bad stuff wore out years ago.

There is also the issue of "over engineering". My understanding is that now adays we can get the numbers crunched closer to optimal, and the result is that rated capacity tends to be closer to the actual capacity than in "the old days". E.g. you could run something 120% of 'max' because of the "margin". Or rather you ran it at 80% of theoretical capacity. Nowadays, you run stuff at 95% of theoretical capacity, so you can only over load it by 4%. There is a story that Henry Ford sent engineers out to the junk yards to find out what ports were not broken on junked Model Ts. Turns out that it was the king pins. So he figured they were "overbuilt" and reduced their heft. Saved on production costs (fifty cents time 2 times N units per year= real money), but people are saying "they don't make them like that anymore".

And as was noticed, companies build what they think they can sell. If you've never had a real X, you don't know what you are missing.

pyotr

-- pyotr filipivich "I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender whether they served zombies he said, ?Sure, what'll you have?'" from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

When was the last time you saw the radiator on an economy car that lasted more than ten years of rough usage? Think Ford, Model "A". I just disposed of my beer fridge, having replaced the start switch 25 years ago, it was manufactured in 1955 and I replaced it as an energy conservation measure. OTOH, I also just replaced my central AC after

23 seasons. Gerry :-)} London, Canada
Reply to
Gerald Miller

Actually, good toasters are out there. I just bought one where all the parts are individually replaceable and I'm really pleased with it. Here's a picture:

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It's a Rowlett Rutland "Regent" 4ATW-131. I got it at more than 50% off. Not sure if they export to the USA, though.

It's certainly the case that consumers are to blame to some degree. After all, the market serves up what they want to buy.

It's interesting to try to establish a general trend. What do people think? In general - that is, if we try to take some kind of average - do people think that the quality of products is better or worse today?

I get the impression that some of the best products from the past are unbeaten, and that some of the craftsmanship required to build these products has been lost. But some people may disagree.

Best wishes,

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy

The interesting question is, how much of this bad old stuff was there?

This is very true. You can build a product which works satisfactorily when new with a fairly small factor of safety. But abuse or overload the product and it'll fail, whereas a product with a larger factor of safety may not. Also, a product with a larger factor of safety will often wear more slowly under normal use. I think reduced factors of safety are quite common because computers allow more accurate modelling. In a way, it is one of the downsides of more advanced modelling techniques.

I wonder if that story is true. There is also a story that Joe Bamford (of JCB excavator fame) would send out his engineers whenever he heard that a JCB excavator was broken down nearby. That way he could see what was broken and do better next time.

Best wishes,

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy

Interesting. What do people think about machine tools themselves? I got to use a Sharp lathe a few years back. Built in Taiwan. A real nice machine which I found it difficult to fault.

Best wishes,

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy

Some new radiators are awful compared to the old copper ones. Even those which imitate the old copper ones have far less metal in them.

Also, because many modern radiators are aluminium with crimped-on plastic top and bottom tanks, you can't fix them. When you get a leak, you've just got to buy a new one.

Best wishes,

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy

I too have seen some pretty awful old furniture.

Best wishes,

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy

NICE toaster!

In my part of the world (Australia), but I'm sure it is the same everywhere, it seems economy of scale rules. The large companies outprice the smaller companies, close them down and then when the competition is gone their drivers are to push the quality (& cost price) as low as the market will bear. Be it tools, hardware or materials that's what has happened here. That reminds me I must take back that caulking gun that crapped itself the first time I used it.....

We buy the crap so we are to blame I guess, nowadays we can pick up an air compressor + half a dozen air tools for under AU$200, for limited use they are fine so I guess there is an upside. Another down side is the guys who sell it to you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what they are selling or its application.

Reply to
Den

Nice toaster Chris. I have seen some quite expensive commercial toasters in a local kitchen shop and I suspect they were this range

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, nice but I don't do that much toast to justify the price but if catering I would expect it would pay for itself. Shame they don't do kettles although my old Morphy Richards stainless steel kettle is still going strong, it came with my house 16 years ago and was 2nd hand then, its only needed a new connector to the element. I suspect the replacement elements will be obsolete by the time it goes, if it isn't already.

Reply to
David Billington

Umm....look sturdy, Boris. Not like those weak and effeminate appliances made by the degenerate capitalist imperialists...

It looks like something made in a country we're boycotting. But I'll bet it would stand up in a hurricane.

Reply to
Ed Huntress

I am making some pretty awful new furniture, DiL2 wants some new storage cupboards and wants them made from white melamine covered particleboard. I offered her real solid Jarrah ( used to be called Swan River Mahogany ), such timber is extremely expensive now and she knocked it back.

I HATE melamine particleboard, it chips whenever a saw or other tool gets within 2 metres.

One cupboard is assembled, just waiting on door fitting, 2 more cut out, waiting assembly.

Did I say I hate chipboard & MDF coated with melamine ?? I DO !

At least, DiL1 did appreciate her Jarrah kitchen wedding present I built for 5 years until they built a new house about 3 years ago.

Some of the hand tools I use are over 50 years old and in many instances (but not always) are better than modern stuff but my Dozuki saws are magnificent.

Reply to
Alan

If you finish it with a router with carbide bit, you'll get nice clean cuts and you'll learn to hate it less. You won't like it, but it will be better.

I've built some pretty elaborate pieces that way, including the corner computer desk I'm typing from now. It still looks like something from Ikea, but at least it doesn't look like something made in a high school shop class. Setting up a guide for all the cuts was tedious but straightforward, if you'll forgive the pun.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

One example might be the Vise-Grip, made by Petersen Mfg Co of Nebraska. The patent expired in 1941 and there are plenty of knockoffs available -- but the knockoffs never seem to work as well as the real thing.

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Reply to
Don Foreman

In general, they don't make them like they used to and I am glad!

Take cars for example. My first car was a '55 Ford. It was a great car for its day, but back then any car over 100,000 miles was a worn out wreck. It was normal for many folks to trade cars annually. A 5 year-old car was considered (and probably was) junkyard fodder. My Ford did make it to 100,000, but the pistons were just about swapping cylinders, it was on at least its third transmission, and its second rear end. Oh yes, my Ford was doing good to manage about 8 MPG. As fond as my memories are of that car; would I want a car like that today? Hell No!

Back then, there was at least one television shop in every neighborhood, because the TVs of the day were lucky to go 6 months without a major breakdown. Radios were much the same. All of us were amateur radio/TV repairmen. There was a tube tester in every drug store, so the normal procedure was to pull all of the tubes, test them, and replace any that tested bad in hopes that would correct today's symptoms.

I was in the tire business when the first real 20,000 mile tires came out. That claim was so unbelievable that nobody would believe it at the time. Now tires go three times as far.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Vaughn

Reply to
Vaughn Simon

Most times I've bought crappy tools in the past I've kicked myself for doing it later. So much so that I've pretty much stopped doing it. I'd rather buy a few good tools than many crappy ones. I want them to perform well, every time. And the few times they go wrong, I want to be able to make a phone call and get a new one free with no hassle.

Best wishes,

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy

Damn, I love the evocative, romantic English names for their machines. "Vincent Black Shadow." "Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud." "Coventry Climax." "Adrian Squire." And now, "Rowlett Rutland Regent."

It sounds like a fighter plane that saved London from the blitz. How could a country that names its machines so majestically ever have lost its empire?

You said it, not me. d8-)

It's a magnificent toaster, Chris. I really do appreciate quality, but it does evoke images of English craftsmen working in dim shops with little hammers and steam-powered machinery in the background. There will always be an England.

Heck, no. You're one of only three or four countries from which we can buy something for which we can read the instruction manuals. The other ones are your former colonies. We'd lose our minds without a *few* of them that were readable.

It's just the kind of thing that appeals to the kinds of people who read this newsgroup. It makes us long for the handcranks that came with a Morris Minor. Forget the fact that you needed the crank because the Morris had a Lucas battery...

I'll tell you what else that toaster makes me think about. Someday a team of archaeologists will unearth an English kitchen, and try to figure out what kinds of rituals went on there. The knives and pots will be ambiguous and it will remain a mystery -- until they see your Rowlett Rutland Regent sitting proudly on the altar. Suddenly, it will all fall into place: It's a room for ritual sacrifice, and the toaster was a machine for making burnt offerings to the gods...

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

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